To watch hundreds of thousands of Egyptians able to throw off the chains of oppression and the legacy of a totalitarian regime that consistently jailed, tortured or murdered its opponents so overtly that most people were cowed into silence, is to remember that the spark of God continues to flourish no matter how long oppressive regimes manage to keep themselves in power, and that ultimately the yearning for freedom and democracy cannot be totally stamped out no matter how cruel and sophisticated the elites of wealth, power and military might appear to be. Many Jews have warned Israel that it is a mistake to ally with these kinds of regimes, just as we’ve warned the US to learn the lesson from its failed alliance with the Shah of Iran. We’ve urged Israel to free the Palestinian people by ending the Occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza. Israel’s long-term security will not be secured through military or economic domination, but only by acting in a generous and caring way toward the Palestinian people first, and then toward all of its Arab neighbours
Rabbi Learner’s positive reaction is echoed in a
Haaretz editorial which, far from showing any signs of panic, simply writes:
The time has come to start preparing for a new regional order. Instead of clinging to the old, collapsing order, Netanyahu must seek peace agreements with both the Palestinians and with Syria in order to make Israel a more welcome and desirable neighbor
This is very interesting. What Learner and Haaretz are saying is that Israel only needs brutal tyrants as neighbors if it continues to be hell bent on a policy of full-spectrum aggression against its Arab neighbors. Hardly big news for most of us, but a quite revolutionary idea for a society which is used to mantrically repeat that only brute force and rabid violence can prevent the destruction of Israel.
Remember Condi with her “birth pangs of a new Middle-East” in 2006? Well, it appears that five years later this is actually happening, though not at all the Middle-East she wanted to see. Really, what has happened is a tectonic shift for the entire region. Consider:
Lebanon: Hezbollah needed only about 1’000 of its 2nd rate soldiers (the best ones were kept north of the Litani River) to comprehensively defeat the IDF. The Hariri/Siniora puppets have lost power and Hezbollah has finally taken political control of Lebanon.
Iran: The “Gucci Revolution” in Iran failed, Mousavi and his patron Rafsanjani were defeated, probably for a long time. The USraelien Empire, bogged down in loosing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan has failed, so far, to militarily strike at Iran. Economically and politically, Iran is as strong as it ever was.
Turkey: The Turkish leadership has fundamentally reassessed its strategic alliance with Israel and has clearly concluded that this alliance is a costly and, possibly, dangerous liability. Though its participation in NATO still is keeping Turkey very much in the US sphere of influence, its regional stature in the Middle-East has immensely benefited from its new policy.
Syria: Syria has always been the paper tiger which never really threatened Israel. The regime in power is corrupt, unprincipled and clearly deeply infiltrated by US and Israeli interests. And yet Syria is hedging its bets by maintaining a close relationship with Iran and with Hezbollah (at least officially). Bottom line – for all its corruption, Syria cannot be considered as much of an ally for Israel, and not much of a good neighbor either.
Jordan: Alongside Egypt, the Jordanian regime has always been the other faithful puppet of Empire in the Middle East: a sniveling, subservient, utterly corrupt regime fully dependent on the Empire for its survival and welfare. Though this regime still appears to be firmly control of the situation, it also is showing signs of being nervous of a “contagion” of the Tunisian model. So far, all the recent talk of “reform” in Jordan appears to be cosmetic, but that is also how it all began in Tunisia. The Israelis better not place too many hopes in the future of the Jordanian regime.
Iraq: the US Empire is so weak that it could not even impose its own regime in Iraq. Instead, this was done by Iran. The Iranians have very skillfully federated the various Shia forces and they are now clearly calling the shots in Iraq.
Afghanistan: Faithful to its historical role of “graveyard of the Empires”, Afghanistan is a complete and total disaster for the US military whose performance in this war has been nothing short of pitiful and who latest escalation of the war into Pakistan will only make things worse.
Pakistan: Yet another comprehensive failure of a US Empire which clearly has absolutely no understanding of the countries it wants to bully into submission. It appears that other than “using drones” the US Empire has by now absolutely no real plan for how to deal with the bloody mess it created.
Somalia: So far the combination of a covert CIA/DIA war against the Islamic Courts of Somalia and a war by proxy (via Ethiopia) has only made a mess of the place. The USA is definitely not any closer to controlling Somalia than it was in the past.
Yemen: In Yemen the US Empire used pretty much the same “recipe” as in Somalia – a covert CIA/DIA war was combined with a war by proxy (via Saudi Arabia) and the results are not much better, except that a friendly puppet regime is still in power. One wonders for how long.
Gaza: For all its long list of strategic mistakes, Hamas has proven to be a capable tactical foe. The mere fact that it is still in control of Gaza shows that the combined might of the USA and Israel is not even capable of dealing with a rather ‘soft’ target like Hamas in Gaza. My bet is that the blockade of Gaza will collapse very soon, either because of the events in Egypt, or because of the next flotilla organized by Ken O’Keefe and his friends. Or a combination of both. Bottom line: Hamas has prevailed against Israel.
West Bank: One would imagine that at least in the West Bank Israel and the USA would be able to achieve a modicum of success. But no! Thanks to the absolutely phenomenal ineptitude of Fatah, and courtesy of al-Jazeera’s “Palestine Papers”, the days of Fatah in the West Bank are also probably numbered. It is rather unclear to me who could replace Abbas and his goons, but at least the power of the “Ramallah oligarchs” is as discredited as Mubarak’s. To make things worse, more and more nations are recognizing Palestine in its 1967 borders (even though the PA does not want them to do so!)
Saudi Arabia: the last totally trustworthy ally of Israel in the USA in the region. The degenerate monarchy of the House of Saud is still as corrupt, as evil, as degenerate, as crazy and as ruthless as it always has been. Next to Kuwait – which does not even deserve to be mentioned here – the KSA appears, at least externally, to be the last truly rock solid ally of the USA in the region. But what can it really do to help Israel and the USA? Being ideologically “fulled” and dependent on the worst type of Wahabi ideology, the regime has to constantly appear to be Islamic and pious. Worse, some elements in the Saudi elites are truly religious and pious, not just for show (of this I can attest personally). It is a safe bet to say that “regime survival” is The One Paramount Concern of the House of Saud and that it will therefore be very limited into what it can do to help Israel. It is one thing to funnel money to Hariri, and quite another to wield some real political influence.
Bottom line: Over the past five years the overall situation of Israel and the USA in the Middle-East has undergone what can only be called a catastrophic decline in influence and power. Condi did get her new Middle-East, but it is definitely not the one she was hoping for. And yet, it is against this background that some Jewish voices in the USA (Learner) and Israel (Haaretz) appear to be seriously promoting what can only be considered a fundamental reevaluation of traditional Israeli policies. By accepting the reality that corrupt dictators cannot rule their people forever, these Jews are also accepting that they will have to relinquish control over the masses they are currently oppressing: the Palestinian people.
I am not being naive here, trust me. I know that Haaretz and Tikkun are not exactly representative of the mindset of the Ziocrazies currently in power in Israel, or even of a sizable minority of the Israeli society or US Jewry. No. But even if this idea of actually truly trying to find some kind of modus vivendi with the rest of the region is currently only held by a tiny minority of Israelis and Jews, it is one which will inevitably become hard to ignore by those who gradually are finding it difficult to convince themselves that they can count on the US Empire to maintain their ugly little experiment in colonial racism and slow motion genocide (otherwise known as “Jewish state of Israel”) going forever and ever.
Whether it will go down in an orgy of violence or by long and difficult negotiations, it is clear that the days of the racist Apartheid regime of the “Jewish state of Israel” are numbered. For all its tanks, nuclear weapons, propaganda machine or trillions of dollars in US aid – this regime is an abomination whose survival is a dialectical impossibility as the seeds of its own destruction are inherent to its nature. Though it would be naive to expect a peaceful collapse of this regime, it is something which we all have a moral obligation to at least hope for. This will certainly remain my personal choice.
The Saker
“Iran is as strong as it ever was.”
So then why are they on a killing spree? Is it just for sport?
Evidence that the Iranian regime is “as strong as ever”…
“Iranian mosque attendence exceptionally low”
http://luc.edu/faculty/gtezcur/files/TezcurCritique.pdf
Its somewhere around 12 percent for young people. Even the most pious of Muslims don’t want to visit the government run mosques and are restricting their prayers to their homes.
Any theories as to why?
The problem with Israel is that there is no such thing as Israeli nationality. Israel is defined as the state of the Jews, all Jews everywhere. So long as that remains true the Arab citizens of Israel can’t achieve equality and I don’t see how a one state solution can come about. As for the two state solution even if it might be worth making such a compromise as the price of peace I dont see Israel evicting hundreds of thousands of fanatical settlers which is what it would take to make a two state solution a reality. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t see Israel making the kind of fundamental changes to its world view necessary for peace until they are forced and what is going to force them?
I suspect the military balance of power in the world is going to have to swing against both the US and Israel before there is a hope of peace. I also suspect there will be a major escalation at some point before peace becomes possible.
@ C.H.
Have you ever been to Iran? The article you quote is 5 years old and out of date. I have visited North Tehran — which the West equates with Iran — and many other areas. The Saker has it wrong:
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Iran is as strong as it ever was.
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Rather, Iran is stronger than it ever was since the revolution.
I am not an apologist for the Islamic Republic; it has a number of serious flaws. OTOH, it has been on the receiving end of a propaganda regime unlike any other state in the last half-century.
What “killing spree”? If one does not like the death penalty, that’s a matter of conscience. But Iran’s judiciary is fiercely independent, and turning every execution in a death penalty state into a political football is unjust. Iran has lost thousands of soldiers in the war against drugs, many more than have been executed.
Statistics-wise, Iran has fared better than virtually every other country in the region. The current administration is implementing a form of liberation theology that has improved the lot of the poor and curbed the excesses of the rich, all while allowing the free market to function. The current subsidy-removal plan is almost ingenious and has been very effective on many levels, such as gasoline self-sufficiency, decreasing pollution, creating a culture of thrift and conservation, while passing the savings along to the most vulnerable in society.
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Even the most pious of Muslims don’t want to visit the government run mosques and are restricting their prayers to their homes.
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This is utter nonsense. The official Friday Prayers are generally packed.
I have seen the youth in the mosques and holy places. Opportunities for spiritual expression outside the home are extensive.
Iran is not monolithic, but it’s the freest country in the Middle East, Turkey and the Zionist regime included. It has a long way to go, but this 30-year old experiment in Islamic Republicanism has accomplished much, much more than its detractors ever care to admit. Objective observers on the left (the monthly-review crowd) and on the right have begrudgingly admitted as much.
Peace
@anonymous:
ran is stronger than it ever was since the revolution.
Agreed. Point taken.
Iran has fared better than virtually every other country in the region.
True.
Iran is not monolithic, but it’s the freest country in the Middle East
Absolutely true. And arguably the ONLY ONE with real elections.
Saker,
Interesting analysis and I agree with most of it. Today by chance I came across something on a friend’s Facebook where he had quoted the words of Ayatollah Khamenai when he was addressing Hamas leader talking about how in a few years a New Middle East will take shape and the dominant force in that will be the people and the religion [Islam]. It is interesting to note that the parties that have become stronger as time has passed are the likes of Hizbullah, Hamas and MB, all which have mandate linked to religion.
It would be interesting to see what happens the next few weeks as this would show what US and Israel will make of the events and how they would move to counter the changes. Personally I feel the fall of Egypt will send shockwaves culminating in the end of US interest in ME and making Israel more and more isolated. Saudi will have to save face or face annihilation by making a tough choice between US and their Muslim brethrens. Overall, it shall soon be the dawn of a new era in ME.
Anonymous,
The article is far from out of date. In fact, my experience indicates that even *fewer*, not more, Iranians are embracing fanatical Shi’ism these days and with good reason. My best friend lives in Iran, and I know about 30 other Iranians who say things that are completely different from what you just claimed. Where do you live right now?
This is the killing spree I am referring too. Something’s got the Mullahs shaken up…
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/02/133437518/executions-surge-in-iran-u-n-says
The bloody theocracy hanged over 75people last month, including a Dutch woman who was conveniently sentenced on absolute bogus drug charges when she was arrested during the ’09 protests.
Who are the mosques packed with on Friday? Old bearded men? If you recall, Khamenei “packed” a mosque with supporters in June ’09 to shout “Marg bar Amreeka!” only to have it drowned away by cries of “Marg bar dictator!” hours later, when Iranians took to the rooftop to peacefully revolt. Young people make up over 70 percent of the population. Most of my friends come from Tehran University. Having spent hours talking to them, I suspect you are being dishonest in everything you just wrote above. I’ve found that only questionable “visitors” like yourself have positive things to say about the regime before you scurry back to your home country to admire the “democracy” at work in Iran from a great distance.
“Iran has lost thousands of soldiers in the war against drugs, many more than have been executed.”
Hanging homosexuals from construction cranes and stoning “adulterers” does not avenge the soldiers who have been killed by drug trafficking.
Its also insulting to use drug trafficking as a cover for executing dissenters like Zahra Bahrami. I have reported on the drug war from several different continents — from Mexico to South America, Asia, and Europe — and I have seen a lot of people from different walks of life who had been arrested for drug possession. However, a 46-year old Muslim woman fighting for democracy does not fit the description. The fact that the Dutch (where she held citizenship) and the media were prevented of any access to the “evidence” only solidifies this.
Rather, Zahra was killed because the regime wanted to execute a high-profile dissenter before the Iranian public, which has been watching the events in Tunis, Cairo, and Khartoum and thinking about tasting freedom.
@C.H: I suspect you are being dishonest in everything you just wrote above. I’ve found that only questionable “visitors” like yourself
That is rude and that is lame ad hominem. You are welcome to disagree with whomever you want here, but do not insult others or ascribe them motives. You either abide by this rule, or I will enforce it myself.
The Saker
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a Dutch woman who was conveniently sentenced on absolute bogus drug charges when she was arrested during the ’09 protests.
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She was apparently previously sentenced to three years in the Netherlands on drug charges and forgery, and also sentenced for passport forgery there on another occasion. I suppose she supported the Dutch political opposition, and that those charges were trumped up as well.
As for homosexuals, the famous case where two were executed involved the RAPE of a young boy. It never ceases to amaze me in the west that the media never seems to care about the victims of those sentenced to death in Iran. A woman murders her husband in Iran with the help of a boyfriend, the world is up in arms. A mentally deficient woman murders her husband in Virginia with the help of a boyfriend, she gets executed and no one murmurs.
Peace
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If you recall, Khamenei “packed” a mosque with supporters in June ’09 to shout “Marg bar Amreeka!” only to have it drowned away by cries of “Marg bar dictator!” hours later, when Iranians took to the rooftop to peacefully revolt.
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You are factually incorrect. The pro-Ahmadinejad/Khamenei demonstrations were on average an order of magnitude larger than those of opponents. In one infamous case, the BBC took pictures from a huge gathering where Ahmadinejad was speaking, cropped his picture out, and claimed it was an opposition rally!.
See also:
http://www.counterpunch.org/zadeh06142010.html
I have friends on BOTH sides of the debate, and even those who take alternate views critical of both. Having studied all the claims and counterclaims I can say: There is no factual, empirical evidence whatsoever that Ahmadinejad did not win the last elections free and square.
You speak of dishonesty: Dishonesty is when an intellectual like Hamid Dabashi, whom I previously respected a great deal, comes out and says — after it becomes clear that there was no provable fraud — that, well, even so it is still a “social fact” that the elections were stolen regardless of reality. Meaning, since the bourgeois elites of Iran and the media in the West made enough noise to the effect that it was stolen, we can assume it as a fact for the social purpose of fighting the regime, even if the reality shows something else.
What sophistry!
Peace
The Afghan-Pakistan war is going brilliantly for NATO/US strategists.
They have reasserted the Afghan opium trade and reasserted it as a base to train Islamic militants again in the tribal regions to destabilise Central Asia and Russia.
Next there will be an engineered campaign for US troops to withdrawal from Afghanistan and Pakistan which is part of the Wikileaks operation and let the Taliban again resume control and let them continue what they started in 97 perhaps they might re-establish the Chechen embassy there who knows.
Looks like your glowing praise Saker of Islam erroneously viewing it as a counter to the NWO given Pakistan and the Taliban’s extensive connections to the CIA and MI6 neglecting real history both historically and contemporary.
“Next there will be an engineered campaign for US troops to withdrawal from Afghanistan and Pakistan which is part of the Wikileaks operation and let the Taliban again resume control and let them continue what they started in 97 perhaps they might re-establish the Chechen embassy there who knows.”
Jack, supposing this is true: then why invade Afghanistan in late 2001? Why didn’t the US just let the Taliban alone back then until now?
“this 30-year old experiment in Islamic Republicanism has accomplished much”
Anonymous: I always thought that the great quality of the Islamic Republic is the combination of the modern values of individual freedom and rights, with the traditional religious values. In the Christian world, the first were implemented with an atheistic/agnostic mindset which in the long term proved very destructive not only to our spirituality, but also to those very democratic values.
I guess you won’t agree with what I will say, but in the 19th centuty up to the 1917 Revolution, Russia was an almost forerunner of the Iranian Revolution, as there were many Russian thinkers who preached a similar model of theocracy as the one which appeared in Iran in 1979, but unfortunately it was never implemented, and the furiously atheistic Bolsheviks destroyed all hope when they came to power.
Saker,
I apologize if I got carried away…it is not my intention to offend anyone. My only intention is to stand up for an oppressed people whom I have very close relationships.
“As for homosexuals, the famous case where two were executed involved the RAPE of a young boy.”
All that shows is that the IRGC and the Basiji don’t tolerate competition, because rape is used regularly against dissenters. Those men may have deserved to be hanged, but it does no justice if the people who are hanging them are professionals at the crime they are supposedly taking a stand against.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/16/iran-rapist-assault-opposition
“You are factually incorrect. The pro-Ahmadinejad/Khamenei demonstrations were on average an order of magnitude larger than those of opponents.”
Based on what…the cropped picture? Google earth showed footage of last year’s February 11th rally in Azadi Square along with a line of buses that were brought in full of people from the countryside. Even with that, they couldn’t even fill the square.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sfa35M1bkI
Opposition supporters thronged Azadi Square (along with most of the streets leading to it) for days when they were out in force in 2009. Also, there is something that is very important to mention…perhaps you will concur. The pro-government supporters are openly encouraged by the security forces to take to the streets and can march free of harassment. Some of them even get paid to show up.The opposition DEFIES the security forces when they take to the street under the threat of arrest, torture, and death. Even if by grace of Khamenei’s brutal interpretation of God you are correct in saying the gov’t drew out more people, it still wouldn’t cement the argument that AN won the election. Numbers become irrelevent when one side faces a risk of torture and the other faces of risk of free food and paychecks.
“I have friends on BOTH sides of the debate, and even those who take alternate views critical of both.”
As do I, although virtually none of them on the pro-AN side are Iranian. I’m inclined to say I may be biased because most of my Iranian friends are students, but then again, young people make up 70 percent of the country. Most AN supporters that I know are American leftists or Arabs. The one exception is my Iranian best friend’s (the one I mentioned above) uncle, who is older (50+) and expresses die-hard support for the theocracy. In my last discussion I had with him he invited me to go to Qom to see the “real” Iran…we’ll see what comes out of that.
“after it becomes clear that there was no provable fraud”
In a country where hardly a tenth of the population regularly attend religious services, fraud seems like the only legitimate answer to explain why an isolationist theocracy was swept back into power. Religious parties were pushed aside in countries as conservative as Pakistan and Indonesia (which are far more religious than Iran is) during their most recent elections, so its laughable to suggest a country made up largely of secularized young people would want to have leaders who base their beliefs on God as their representatives. Equally laughable were the “landslide” election results that were announced right as the polls closed in June 2009. I don’t think the votes were rigged — I think they weren’t even counted. The results were decided by Khamenei before the election was even held.
“She was apparently previously sentenced to three years in the Netherlands on drug charges and forgery, and also sentenced for passport forgery there on another occasion.”
I saw the Dutch TV report, even though the photo of her with her daughter implores me to take it with a grain of salt. While they come from a broad spectrum, drug traffickers to be to ruthless and motivated solely in life by greed. Ciudad Juarez can attest to that.
Nevertheless, even if she was in fact sentenced back home it still seems like a bogus charge. Zahra was kept among political prisoners at Evin, not criminal traffickers. The fact that the Iranian authorities won’t hand over her body to her daughter is very ominous, perhaps indicating she was tortured either to abstract a “confession” or punish her for siding with the opposition. There are some reports floating around that she may have died of torture…but I guess we will only get the information the regime wants us to know.
@Carlo
A number of reasons.
a) Oil contracts between the Saudi/CIA oil company Taliban and the US broke down.
b) The Russian backed Northern Alliance was causing trouble for the Taliban and since the 98 Embassy bombing the connections the Taliban and terrorism became apparent.
c) Under international pressure and the effect it had on the Afghan population and that drug trafficking was cutting into the main financial resource that fuelled the Northern Alliance the Taliban regime sought to eradicate the Opium trade there.
d) As I had stated before with overwhelming evidence the original 9/11 attack was a conventional hijacking and landing of 4 commercial planes in the US as a political attack against Russia to get them to withdrawal from Chechnya.
More updates and new info has to be added to the thread I might add which I am having trouble getting info.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/84302/thread/1284248981/last-1288620675/The+real+9-11+cover+up-+Political+hijacking++was+originally+aimed+at+Russia.
But either unknown to British and US intelligence Bin Ladin turned it into a suicide mission aided and abetted by a foreign intelligence agency. I think you can guess who that was.
After 9/11 they had to militarily intervene in Afghanistan against the Taliban.
e) It let US expand and set up military bases in Georgia and Central Asia.
As to the Bolshevik revolution the difference between that Iran is that it was a decade’s long covert British lead geo-political coup organised, financed and ran by non-Russia with almost the entire government lead by Trotsky coming from New York just like Russia’s current Islamic insurgency.
Bolshevik revolution is more akin to the overthrow of Mossadaq or Milosevic or any other foreign intelligence inspired coup.
In fact when the Iranian revolution took route it was covertly supported by CIA and MI6 to support and aid international jihadism first against the Soviets in 79 and Communist affiliated governments and groups and in the post Soviet sphere.
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Those men may have deserved to be hanged, but it does no justice if the people who are hanging them are professionals at the crime they are supposedly taking a stand against.
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You have no proof of that at all. The IRGC and Basij had nothing to do with it, it was a judiciary matter.
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Based on what…the cropped picture?
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Based on the overwhelming majority of independent reports, including begrudging opponents of the regime. There are plenty of people who hate AN who are objective enough to admit that he won, and that his crowds were mostly larger. And they also understand why.
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it still wouldn’t cement the argument that AN won the election.
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You are right. We know who won because the votes _were_ counted. You make a claim that they were not, but there is NO solid evidence of that whatsoever. Not one iota.
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In a country where hardly a tenth of the population regularly attend religious services, fraud seems like the only legitimate answer to explain why an isolationist theocracy was swept back into power.
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Sophistry:
a) Attendance of religious services is not a benchmark for political participation. Iranians are for the most part an intensively religious people, even many of the outwardly secular ones. In any case, Sunnism in practice has always placed more importance on collective observance of religious services than Shi3ism. This is a non-issue.
b) Mousavi and Karroubi were part of the theocracy. They only turned against it when Mousavi lost.
Mousavi promised to bring evidence that the elections were stolen. Even his supporters had to admit that the “evidence” he brought was a joke.
Some of us disliked GWB — to put it mildly — but he won the 2004 election, irregularities in Ohio notwithstanding. As much as it boggles the imaginations of his detractors, the American people actually put that man back in office. Ok, done, move on.
Many of us were actually quite comfortable with Mousavi coming to power, and some of us voted for him. But his behavior after the election was reprehensible, to say the least, and many of his supporters have abandoned him on that count.
An earlier article by the secular IZ sums it up:
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=33816
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its laughable to suggest a country made up largely of secularized young people would want to have leaders who base their beliefs on God as their representatives. Equally laughable were the “landslide” election results that were announced right as the polls closed in June 2009.
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Laughing is the manifestation of an emotion, but facts are independent of emotion. With all due respect, if you were to … become much more familiar with more strata of Iranian society before laughing at them, your perspective might broaden a bit. Iran’s youth are not as “largely secularized” as you have described. Some are, but you cannot extrapolate from a few students to the entire country. That’s bad statistical analysis and bad sociology.
Most of your arguments are value-laden and loaded (“it is laughable” etc), and many of your claims are based on heavily biased media reports and half-truths. But value-laden arguments are no substitute for the truth.
Example:
“It is laughable that GWB could have won the 2004 election. The war in Iraq was a disaster, Kerry was a respected war hero, and the youth were all against Bush, etc etc etc”.
But Bush _did_ win fair and square– although some of us still insist he stole that one too –, and an objective look at the entire thing will explain why. Regardless of our ideological commitments, we have to step out of those cocoons when searching for the truth.
@anonymous: its laughable to suggest a country made up largely of secularized young people would want to have leaders who base their beliefs on God as their representatives.
This sentence is interesting as it clearly shows the ideological underpinning of the Gucci Revolution: under the guise of electing another President their end goal was simply “regime change”, i.e, to replace the Islamic Republic of Iran with a secular “iPod carrying” regime.
As I wrote many times, the Gucci Revolution was not about Mousavi vs. Ahmadinejad, but about Rafsanjani using the “iPod generation” to overthrown the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. The ‘Guccis’ never admitted that openly because if they had they would have lost a majority of their own supporters, but when you read their writings since the failure of their color-coded revolution it is quite clear what their real ideology was: replace Khamenei by Steve Jobs and/or Lady Gaga…
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I saw the Dutch TV report, even though the photo of her with her daughter implores me to take it with a grain of salt.
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Don’t you see how emotionally-laden that argument is? The attitude you just expressed would be unacceptable for a member of any jury or any judge in any country.
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While they come from a broad spectrum, drug traffickers [tend] to be to ruthless and motivated solely in life by greed.
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How do you _know_ that’s not the case here? And that’s by no means an absolute rule!
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There are some reports floating around that she may have died of torture
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The rumor mill at work, and in the West we are prepared to believe any rumor “floating around” as long as it is against the Iranian government.
Anyway, this ground has been covered many times, and I’ll reserve future comments for the situation at hand, namely, the people of Egypt. I can only hope that you will study other sources and points of view in your search for the truth of the matter.
Peace
“You have no proof of that at all”
I cited proof that the regime is involved in gruesome acts of rape…you chose to ignore it.
“Based on the overwhelming majority of independent reports, including begrudging opponents of the regime”
Counterpunch is not “an overwhelming majority of independent reports”.
“If you were to become much more familiar with more strata of Iranian society before laughing at them”
I don’t understand what you mean with this point. I interact with Iranians everyday…the only people I am inclined to laugh at are the non-Iranian supporters of the regime who don’t live in Iran (unfortunately there are many of them). Its almost as if you would like me to stop talking to people who actually live there and get my information on what’s really happening in Iran from American leftists who admire the “democracy” at work in that country from thousands of miles away in the West.
“But value-laden arguments are no substitute for the truth.”
The truth is that Regime supporters couldn’t even fill Azadi Square on their most important and sacred day. The aerial footage proved it, yet you dismiss that as a “heavily-biased” media report. Its easy to get your way and espouse “the truth” when everyone is out to get you, including the global non-regime media, and you can fall back on conspiracy theories to hold your statements together.
“facts are independent of emotion”
Unless your emotion is paranoia, then facts can become null and void at will.
“But Bush _did_ win fair and square– although some of us still insist he stole that one too”
If millions of people had poured out onto the streets of America’s major cities after 2004, I would have little doubt that Bush stole the election. That didn’t happen though, because it was clear that the majority of Americans re-elected him and the opposition knew this.
“Regardless of our ideological commitments, we have to step out of those cocoons when searching for the truth.”
I agree with this statement…this is why it bothers me so much when I see that so many of the regime’s supporters come from outside of Iran’s borders and go to every length they can to prove it legitimacy, aside from actually interacting with Iranians.
“As I wrote many times, the Gucci Revolution was not about Mousavi vs. Ahmadinejad, but about Rafsanjani using the “iPod generation” to overthrown the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.”
Saker, Raffers is no better than Khamenei…he’d probably be even worse (it would be like having Omar Suleiman take over from Mubarak, only with “God” on their side). After all, this is a man who was recently indicted by an Argentinean Judge for using Hezbollah agents to blow up synagogues in Buenos Aires. You have told me that you are an admirer of Hassan Nasrallah — Raffers was instrumental in creating his group and is a staunch supporter of it. Yep, Raffers, Khamenei, and Ahmadinejad are one in the same, as is Mousavi, aside from his loose understanding that Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust comments have gotten Iran nowhere. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Mousavi drew many Iranians out onto the street, appeared to take more moderate positions than AN, and emerged as a leader, but I believe his talk of “going back to the glory days of Khomeini” scared a lot of people. Many Iranians who felt that change was coming felt betrayed when they realized that the alternatives to AN and his entourage were just as delusional. When Iranians overcome this stinging discouragement and fear of the regime, a day will come where we see six million — not only three — people pour out onto the streets of Tehran to revolt. You may disagree with me, but the IRI’s leaders don’t seem to — hence the 300 percent rise in executions.
“The rumor mill at work, and in the West we are prepared to believe any rumor “floating around” as long as it is against the Iranian government.”
They still haven’t handed over Zahra’s body to her daughter.
@C.H.: his is a man who was recently indicted by an Argentinean Judge for using Hezbollah agents to blow up synagogues in Buenos Aires.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2008/01/hezbollah-didnt-do-argentine-bombing.html
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“You have no proof of that at all”
I cited proof that the regime is involved in gruesome acts of rape…you chose to ignore it.
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The Guardian is a totally unreliable source when it comes to Iran: no proof at all.
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The truth is that Regime supporters couldn’t even fill Azadi Square on their most important and sacred day. The aerial footage proved it, yet you dismiss that as a “heavily-biased” media report.
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I’ve seen aerial footage that shows crowds of supporters of S Khamenei that dwarfed those of the opposition. One does not have to be a supporter of the regime to acknowledge that the regime produced bigger crowds.
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“But Bush _did_ win fair and square– although some of us still insist he stole that one too”
If millions of people had poured out onto the streets of America’s major cities after 2004, I would have little doubt that Bush stole the election.
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People pouring into the streets is not the measure of fact. The 2000 US election was almost certainly stolen, and no one poured into the streets. One has to look beyond street demonstrations to assess the reality. Otherwise one can easily fall for demagoguery, as people did for Mousavi’s claims. This is coming from someone who once admired Mousavi. And there are lots of Iranians who feel the same way.
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“If you were to become much more familiar with more strata of Iranian society before laughing at them”
I don’t understand what you mean with this point. I interact with Iranians everyday…the only people I am inclined to laugh at are the non-Iranian supporters of the regime who don’t live in Iran (unfortunately there are many of them). Its almost as if you would like me to stop talking to people who actually live there and get my information on what’s really happening in Iran from American leftists who admire the “democracy” at work in that country from thousands of miles away in the West.
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No, I said, “more strata of Iranian society” than what you have demonstrated so far in your responses. The anti-regime stratum is there, no doubt about it. But I see in your analyses an extrapolation from your interaction with that one element to the whole country and system that is simply not borne out by the totality of the facts. Honest opponents of the regime will tell you that as well.
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“Regardless of our ideological commitments, we have to step out of those cocoons when searching for the truth.”
I agree with this statement…this is why it bothers me so much when I see that so many of the regime’s supporters come from outside of Iran’s borders and go to every length they can to prove it legitimacy, aside from actually interacting with Iranians.
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Here you make an incorrect assumption. I am suggesting exactly the opposite: interact with _more_ Iranians from _more_ layers of the society! [How do you know I’m not one?] The 2 articles I referred to you were by a Kurdish Iranian secularist, for example.
There are numerous other examples but, as I said, this ground has been covered already — not hard to find it — and the urgency of the situation in Egypt is such that there is no time to rehash it all.
Peace
Come on…Raffers can secretly orchestrate an “iPod Revolution” to overthrow Khamenei but he can’t sneak a couple of Hezzie suicide bombers into Latin America?
BTW, there was a claim of responsibility by Islamists, at least in the first attack on the embassy. It wasn’t by Hezbollah (it was by Islamic Jihad) but nothing of this magnitude could be planned in Lebanon without HA knowledge.
http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/terror_92/review.html
“interact with _more_ Iranians from _more_ layers of the society”
I would be happy to do so, but pro-Ahmadinejad Iranians are a lot more difficult to find than you seem to think. I already told you about the exchange I had with my best friend’s uncle, who is a regime supporter. When I do get over there (depending on if they grant me a visa…which didn’t go so well last time I applied) I will take him up on his offer to visit Qom and Mashhad.
As of right now, I have seen nothing in my interactions with Iranians that backs up even a shred of what you have insinuated here. Most of my discussions with defenders of the regime are with people outside of Iran, like you and saker…and I have had a lot of these discussions.
“I’ve seen aerial footage that shows crowds of supporters of S Khamenei that dwarfed those of the opposition”
Its estimated that 3 million people took to the streets to protest AN’s “victory”, at least in the first days of the revolt. The gov’t had its supporters, but none of them came even remotely close to that number.
“the urgency of the situation in Egypt is such that there is no time to rehash it all.”
The people in Iran are just as important. Remember…while the protesters are clashing in Egypt, people are being executed left and right in Iran. The regime would like all of us to divert our attention, so its important to note that Iran’s situation is every bit as urgent as Egypt’s is right now.