By Dmitry Orlov and posted with special permission
A terrible war is about to erupt on Russia’s border with the Ukraine—or not—but there is some likelihood of a significant number of people getting killed before project Ukraine is finally over. Given that around 13 thousand people have been killed over the past seven years—the civil war in the Donbass region of eastern Ukraine has gone on for that long!—this is no laughing matter. But people get desensitized to the mostly low-level warfare. Just over the past couple of weeks a grandfather was shot by a Ukrainian sniper while feeding his chickens and a young boy was killed by a bomb precision-dropped on him from a Ukrainian drone.
But what’s about to happen now is forecasted to be on a different scale: the Ukrainians are moving heavy armor and troops up to the line of separation while the Russians are moving theirs up to their side of the Ukrainian border, a position from which they can blast any and all Ukrainian troops straight out of the gene pool without so much as setting foot on Ukrainian territory—should they wish to do so. The Russians can justify their military involvement by the need to defend their own citizens: over the past seven years half a million residents in eastern Ukraine have applied for and been granted Russian citizenship. But how exactly can Russia defend its citizens while they are stuck in the crossfire between Russian and Ukrainian forces?
The rationale of defending its citizens led to conflict in the briefly Georgian region of South Ossetia, which started on August 8, 2008 and lasted barely a week, leaving Georgia effectively demilitarized. Russia rolled in, Georgia’s troops ran off, Russia confiscated some of the more dangerous war toys and rolled out. Georgia’s paper warriors and their NATO consultants and Israeli trainers were left wiping each others’ tears. Any suggestion of arming and equipping the Georgians since then has been met with groaning and eye-rolling. Is the upcoming event in eastern Ukraine going to be similar to the swift and relatively painless defanging of Georgia in 2008? Given that the two situations are quite different, it seems foolish to think that the approach to resolving them would be the same.
Is it different this time and is World War III is about to erupt with eastern Ukraine being used as a trigger for this conflagration? Do the various statements made at various times by Vladimir Putin provide a solid enough basis for us to guess at what will happen next? Is there a third, typically, infuriatingly Russian approach to resolving this situation, where Russia wins, nobody dies and everyone in the West is left scratching their heads?
The Ukrainian military is much like everything else currently found in the Ukraine—the railway system, the power plants, the pipeline systems, the ports, the factories (the few that are left)—a patched-up hold-over from Soviet times. The troops are mostly unhappy, demoralized conscripts and reservists. Virtually all of the more capable young men have either left the country to work abroad or have bribed their way out of being drafted. The conscripts sit around getting drunk, doing drugs and periodically taking pot shots into and across the line of separation between Ukrainian-held and separatist-held territories. Most of the casualties they suffer are from drug and alcohol overdoses, weapons accidents, traffic accidents caused by driving drunk and self-harm from faulty weapons. The Ukrainian military is also working on winning a Darwin award for the most casualties caused by stepping on their own land mines. As for the other side, many of the casualties are civilians wounded and killed by constant shelling from the Ukrainian side of the front, which runs quite close to population centers.
The Ukrainian military has received some new weapons from the US and some NATO training, but as the experience in Georgia has shown, that won’t help them. Most of these weapons are obsolete, non-updated versions of Soviet armaments from former East Bloc but currently NATO nations such as Bulgaria. These really aren’t of much use against an almost fully rearmed Russian military. A lot of the Ukrainian artillery is worn out and, given that Ukrainian industry (what’s left of it) is no longer able to manufacture gun barrels, artillery shells or even mortar rounds, this makes the Ukrainian military quite literally the gang that can’t shoot straight. It’s a great day for them if they manage to hit a kindergarten or a maternity clinic and most of the time they are just cratering up the empty countryside and littering it up with charred, twisted metal.
In addition to the hapless conscripts and reservists there are also some volunteer battalions that consist of hardcore Ukrainian nationalists. Their minds have been carefully poisoned by nationalist propaganda crafted thanks to large infusions of foreign (mostly American) money. Some of them have been conditioned to think that it was the ancient Ukrs who built the Egyptian pyramids and dug the Black Sea (and piled the left-over dirt to build the Caucasus mountain range). These may or may not be more combat-capable than the rest (opinions vary) but, much more importantly, they are a political force that the government cannot ignore because they can quite literally hold it hostage. They have been known for stunts such as shelling the offices of a television channel whose editorial policies they found disagreeable and physically assaulting a busload of opposition activists.
It is these Ukro-Nazi zealots that stand directly in the way of any peaceful settlement of the situation in eastern Ukraine and an inevitable eventual rapprochement between the Ukrainians and Russia. There is a deep and abiding irony in that these über-antisemitic Ukro-Nazis are about to be ordered into battle against Russia by a Jewish comedian (Vladimir Zelensky, president) who got elected thanks to a Jewish oligarch (Igor “Benny” Kolomoisky). Are they going to be annihilated? Quite possibly, yes. Will their annihilation make Ukraine and the world a better place? You be the judge. To the Russians these Nazi battalions are just a bunch of terrorists and, as Putin famously put it, it is up to him to send terrorists to God and then it is up to God to decide what to do with them. But there is a more efficient strategy: let them remain somebody else’s problem. After all, these Nazi battalions have almost zero ability to threaten Russia. Eventually the Europeans will realize that the Ukraine must be denazified, at their own expense, of course, with Russia offering advice and moral support.
To understand where this Ukrainian nationalist menace came from without venturing too far down the memory hole, it is enough to appreciate the fact that at the end of World War II some number of Ukrainian war criminals who fought on the side of the Nazis and took part in acts of genocide against Ukrainian Jews and Poles found a welcoming home in the US and in Canada, where they were able to feather their nests and bring up the next several generations of Ukrainian Nazis. After the collapse of the USSR, they were reintroduced into the Ukraine and given political support in the hopes of thoroughly alienating the Ukraine from Russia. In the course of serial color revolutions and unending political upheaval and strife they were able to become prominent, then dominant, in Ukrainian political life, to a point that they can now hold the Ukrainian government hostage whenever it fails to be sufficiently belligerent toward Russia, to maintain strict anti-Russian censorship in the media and to physically threaten anyone who voices disagreement with them.
Russophobia and belligerence toward Russia are, in turn, all that is currently required of the Ukraine by its US and EU masters, who wish to portray the Ukraine as a bulwark against a supposedly aggressive Russia but in reality wish to use it as an anti-Russian irritant and to use it to contain (meaning to restrict and frustrate) Russia economically and geopolitically. To this end the Ukrainian school curriculum has been carefully redesigned to inculcate hatred of all things Russian. The Ukraine’s Western mentors think that they are constructing a pseudo-ethnic totalitarian cult that can be used as a battering ram against Russia, along the lines of Nazi Germany but with much tighter external political control, or, to use a more recent, updated CIA playbook, along the lines of Al Qaeda and its various offshoots in the Middle East.
The rationale that’s used to serve up all this is “countering Russian aggression.” But it is inaccurate to describe Russia as aggressive. It is much closer to the truth to describe it as, by turns, assimilative, protective and insouciant. It is assimilative in that you too can apply for a Russian citizenship based on a number of criteria, the most important of which is cultural: you need to speak Russian, and to do so convincingly you have to assimilate culturally. If an entire Russian-speaking region starts waving the Russian tricolor at rallies, singing the Russian anthem and then holds a referendum where a convincing majority votes to rejoin Russia (97% in Crimea in 2014), then Russia will annex that territory and defend it. And if lots of people in a Russian-speaking region individually apply for Russian citizenship, swear allegiance to Russia and are issued Russian passports, then Russia will try to defend them individually against attack.
All would be sweetness and light with this scheme of voluntary accession if certain Russian regions didn’t periodically start demanding independence or if the Russians themselves didn’t periodically shed their self-important and ungrateful dependents. As this has happened, Russia has granted them sovereignty, which, more often than not, they didn’t know what to do with. At various times, Russia has freely bestowed national sovereignty on a whole slew of countries: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, the Ukraine, Moldova, Bulgaria, Rumania, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kirghizia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan… For some of them, it granted them sovereignty several times over (Poland seems to be the prize-winner in that category). The political elites of these countries, having become used to suckling at Mother Russia’s ample bosom, naturally look for someone new to invade and/or liberate them and then to feed them.
After the collapse of the USSR, their new masters naturally became the US and the EU. But as these newly sovereign nations soon found out, not as much milk has flowed in their direction from their new masters, and some of them have started casting furtive glances toward Russia again. The twentieth century was a confusing time for many of these countries, and many of them are puzzled to this day as to whether at any given time they were being occupied or liberated by Russia. Let us consider, as a mini case study, the three Baltic mini-nations of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. With the exception of the Lithuanians, who had their 15 minutes of fame during their brief late-medieval dalliance with Poland, these three ethnic groups never made good candidates for sovereign nations. They were first dominated by the Germans, then by the Swedes.
Then Peter the Great purchased their lands from the Swedes with silver coin, but after that they continued to toil as serfs for their German landlords. But then in mid-19th century the Russian Empire abolished serfdom, starting with Estonian and Latvian serfs as an experiment. It then introduced compulsory schooling, wrote down the local languages, and invited the more promising native sons to come and study at St. Petersburg. This started them on the way toward developing a national consciousness, and what a headache that turned out to be!
While the Russian Empire held together they remained under control, but after the Russian Revolution they gained independence and swiftly turned fascist. As World War II neared, the Soviet leadership became justifiably concerned over having little pro-Nazi fascist states right on their border and occupied/liberated them. But then as the Germans advanced and the Red Army retreated, they were re-occupied by the fascists/liberated from the communists. But then as the Germans retreated and the Red Army advanced, they were re-occupied/re-liberated again and became, for a time, exemplary Soviet Communists.
And so they remained, occupied/liberated, being stuffed full of Soviet-built schools, hospitals, factories, roads, bridges, ports, railways and other infrastructure—until the USSR collapsed. They were the first to demand independence, singing songs and holding hands across all three republics. Since then they have squandered all of their Soviet inheritance and have progressively shed population while serving as playgrounds for NATO troops who get a special thrill, I suppose, by training right on Russia’s border. Their political elites made a tidy little business of Russophobia, which pleased their new Western masters but gradually wrecked their economies. Having reached their peak during the late Soviet era, they are now hollow shells of their former selves.
And now, lo and behold, an embarrassingly large chunk of their populations is pining after the good old Soviet days and wants better relations with Russia (which, in the meantime, seems to have largely forgotten that these Baltic statelets even exist). Their political elites would want nothing more than for Russia to occupy/liberate them again, because then they could be rid of their noisome constituents and move to London or Geneva, there to head up a government in exile and work on plans for the next round of occupation/liberation.
To their horror, they are now realizing that Russia has no further use for them, while their new masters at the EU are sinking into a quagmire of their own problems, leaving them abandoned with no kind master to care for them and to feed them. They thought they had signed up to administer a vibrant new democracy using free money from the EU, but instead they are now stuck administering a depopulating, economically stagnant backwater peopled by ethnic relicts. In eras past, they would have only had to wait until the next wave of barbarian invasion from the east. The barbarians would slaughter all the men, rape and/or kidnap all the prettier women, and the naturally recurring process of ethnogenesis would start again. But now there are a dozen time zones of Russia to their east and no hope at all of any more barbarian invasions, so all they can do is drink a lot and, by turns, curse the Russians and the Europeans.
The situation is much the same throughout Eastern Europe, in a great arc of semi-sovereign, pseudo-sovereign and (in the case of the Ukraine) faux-sovereign nations from the Baltic to the Black Sea and on to the Caspian Sea and beyond. The many serial occupations/liberations have given their political elites a wonderful weathercock-like quality: one moment they are wearing Nazi insignia and heiling Hitler and the next moment they are good Soviet Communists reciting the 10 Commandments of the Builders of Communism. The Ukraine (getting back to it, finally) is no different in this respect but different in another: by no stretch of the imagination is it even a nation, or a combination, assemblage or grouping of nations; it is, strictly speaking, an accidental territorial agglomeration. As a failed attempt to create a monoethnic nation-state it is a chimera.
The following map, labeled “Dynamics of agglomeration of Ukrainian territories,” shows the process in detail. The toponym “Ukraine” (“Ukraina”) is most likely of Polish origin, meaning “border zone,” and it seems to have first become a thing in 1653 when the red-colored region below decided that it had had enough of Polish Catholic dominance and discrimination (its inhabitants being Orthodox Christians) and chose to rejoin Russia. The region became known as Malorossia, or Little Russia, and the yellow-colored districts were added to it over time. And then, after the Russian Revolution, came the big gift: Malorossia and neighboring districts were formed into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and to make it something more than just a rural backwater Lenin saw it fit to lump in with it a number of Russian regions shaded in blue. It was this mistake that paved the way to the current impasse in what is but by all rights should never have been eastern Ukraine.
Then, right before, and again right after World War II Stalin lumped in the green-shaded western districts, which were previously part of he Austro-Hungarian Empire. Its inhabitants were Austrian, Polish, Hungarian, Rumanian and most of the rest, though initially Russian, had spent five centuries under foreign rule and spoke a distinctive, archaic dialect that served as the basis for creating the synthetic language now known as Ukrainian, while the rest of what is now Ukraine spoke Russian, Yiddish and a wide assortment of village dialects. It was this alienated group that was used as leavening to fashion a synthetic Ukrainian nationalism. In turn, Ukrainian Bolshevik leaders used this faux-nationalism to fashion the Ukraine into a regional power center within the USSR.
And then came the final mistake when Nikita Khrushchev, very much a product of the Ukrainian regional power center, paid it back for helping to promote him to the top job by giving it Russian Crimea—a move that was illegal under the Soviet constitution which was in effect at that time and a prime example of late Bolshevik political corruption that was undone in 2014 with great jubilation.
There are those who think that the solution to the Ukrainian problem is to take the Ukraine apart the same way it was put together. Behold the following map. Moving east to west, we have the Russian tricolor over Crimea (the only factual bit so far), then the flag of Novorussia covering all those territories that were arbitrarily lumped into the newly created Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic by Lenin in 1922. Further west we have the flag of the state of Ukraine. And to the west is the flag of the Right Sector, a nationalist party with distinct Nazi tendencies that is currently active in Ukrainian politics.
I believe that, with the exception of Crimea, this map may very well turn out to be complete and utter nonsense. It seems outlandish to think that the Ukrainian Humpty-Dumpty, which is in the process of being knocked off the wall most unceremoniously by just about everyone, including Russia, the EU and the US, is going to break apart into such tidy, historically justifiable pieces. For one thing, national borders don’t matter so much any more once you are east of the Russian border, all of Europe now being one big unhappy mess. With millions of Ukrainians trying to eke out a living by working in Russia, or Poland, or further West, the distinctions between the various bits of the Ukrainian territory they are from are just not that meaningful to anyone.
For another, all of the Ukraine is now owned by the same bunch of oligarchs whose fortunes are tightly integrated with those of transnational corporations and of Western financial institutions. None of them care at all about the people that once inhabited this region and their varied histories and linguistic preferences. They care about translating economic and financial control directly into political control with a minimum of diplomatic politesse. The Ukraine has been in the process of being stripped bare of anything valuable for 30 years now, up to and including its fertile soil, and once there is nothing left to loot it will be abandoned as a wild field, largely uninhabited.
But we are not quite there yet, and for now the only map that really matters is the following one, which shows the two separatist regions of Donetsk and Lugansk, collectively known as Donbass, short for Donetsk Basin, a prolific coal province that was mainly responsible for fueling the Ukraine’s former industrial might, which to this day continues to produce anthracite, a valuable, energy-rich coal that is now scarce in the world. It is that relatively tiny but densely populated sliver of land along the Russian border, less than 100km across in many places, that is the powder keg that some believe may set off World War III.
The Ukrainian military has been massing troops and armor along the line of separation while the Russian military has pulled up its forces to their side of the border. Shelling, sniper fire and other provocations from the Ukrainian side are intensifying, with the hope of provoking the Russians into moving forces onto Ukrainian territory, thus allowing the collective West to shout “Aha! Russian aggression!” Then they could put a stop to Nord Stream II pipeline, scoring a major geopolitical victory for Washington and follow that up with plenty of other belligerent moves designed to hurt Russia politically and economically.
For the Russians, there are no good choices that are obvious. Not responding to Ukrainian provocations and doing nothing while they shell and invade the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk, killing Russian citizens who live there, would make Russia look weak, undermine the Russian government’s position domestically and cost it a great deal of geopolitical capital internationally. Responding to Ukrainian provocations with overwhelming military force and crushing the Ukrainian military as was done in Georgia in 2008 would be popular domestically but could potentially lead to a major escalation and possibly an all-out war with NATO. Even if militarily the conflict is contained and NATO forces sit it out, as they did in Georgia, the political ramifications would cause much damage to the Russian economy through tightened sanctions and disruptions to international trade.
Those being the obvious bad choices, what are the obvious good ones, if any? Here, we have to pay careful attention to the official pronouncements Putin has made over the years, and to take them as face value. First, he said that Russia does not need any more territory; it has all the land it could ever want. Second, he said that Russia will follow the path of maximum liberalization in granting citizenship to compatriots and that, in turn, the well-being of Russia’s citizens is a top priority. Third, he said that resolving the conflict in eastern Ukraine through military means is unacceptable. Given these constraints, what courses of action remain open?
The answer, I believe, is obvious: evacuation. There are around 3.2 million residents in Donetsk People’s Republic and 1.4 million in Lugansk People’s Republic, for a total of some 4.6 million residents. This may seem like a huge number, but it’s moderate by the scale of World War II evacuations. Keep in mind that Russia has already absorbed over a million Ukrainian migrants and refugees without much of a problem. Also, Russia is currently experiencing a major labor shortage, and an infusion of able-bodied Russians would be most welcome.
Domestically, the evacuation would likely be quite popular: Russia is doing right by its own people by pulling them out of harm’s way. The patriotic base would be energized and the already very active Russian volunteer movement would swing into action to assist the Emergencies Ministry in helping move and resettle the evacuees. The elections that are to take place later this year would turn into a nationwide welcoming party for several million new voters. The Donbass evacuation could pave the way for other waves of repatriation that are likely to follow. There are some 20 million Russians scattered throughout the world, and as the world outside Russia plunges deeper and deeper into resource scarcity they too will want to come home. While they may presently be reluctant to do so, seeing the positive example of how the Donbass evacuees are treated could help change their minds.
The negative optics of surrendering territory can be countered by not surrendering any territory. As a guarantor of the Minsk Agreements, Russia must refuse to surrender the Donbass to the Ukrainian government until it fulfills the terms of these agreements, which it has shown no intention of doing for seven years now and which it has recently repudiated altogether. It is important to note that the Russian military can shoot straight across all of Donbass without setting foot on Ukrainian soil. Should the Ukrainian forces attempt to enter Donbass, they will be dealt with as shown in the following instructional video. Note that the maximum range of the Tornado-G system shown in the video is 120km.
And should the Ukrainians care to respond by attacking Russian territory, another one of Putin’s pronouncements helps us understand what would happen next: if attacked, Russia will respond not just against the attackers but also against the centers of decision-making responsible for the attack. The Ukrainian command in Kiev, as well as its NATO advisers, would probably keep this statement in mind when considering their steps.
The Donbass evacuation should resonate rather well internationally. It would be a typical Putin judo move knocking NATO and the US State Department off-balance. Since this would be a large humanitarian mission, it would be ridiculous to attempt to portray it as “Russian aggression.” On the other hand, Russia would be quite within its rights to issue stern warnings that any attempt to interfere with the evacuation or to launch provocations during the evacuation process would be dealt with very harshly, freeing Russia’s hands in dispatching to God the berserkers from the Ukraine’s Nazi battalions, some of whom don’t particularly like to follow orders.
The West would be left with the following status quo. The Donbass is empty of residents but off-limits to them or to the Ukrainians. The evacuation would in no sense change the standing or the negotiating position of the evacuees and their representatives vis-à-vis the Minsk agreements, locking this situation in place until Kiev undertakes constitutional reform, becomes a federation and grants full autonomy to Donbass, or until the Ukrainian state ceases to exist and is partitioned. The Ukraine would be unable to join NATO (a pipe dream which it has stupidly voted into its constitution) since this would violate the NATO charter, given that it does not control its own territory.
Further sanctions against Russia would become even more difficult to justify, since it would be untenable to accuse it of aggression for undertaking a humanitarian mission to protect its own citizens or for carrying out its responsibilities as a guarantor of the Minsk agreements. The Donbass would remain as a stalker zone roamed by Russian battlefield robots sniping Ukrainian marauders, with the odd busload of schoolchildren there on a field trip to lay flowers on the graves of their ancestors. Its ruined Soviet-era buildings, not made any newer by three decades of Ukrainian abuse and neglect, will bear silent witness to the perpetual ignominy of the failed Ukrainian state.
History is as often driven by accident as by logic, but since we cannot predict accidents, logic is the only tool we have in trying to guess the shape of the future. Rephrasing Voltaire, this, then, is the best that we can expect to happen in this the best of all possible worlds.
My other writings are available at https://patreon.com/orlov and https://subscribestar.com/orlov. Thank you for your support.
With respect Mr Orlov, if you were as drunk as I am now when you wrote this, I might be able to follow what you are saying. I promise I’ll read it again in the morning.
Tim finally woke up. Sober but still stupid. Instead of trying to read my writings perhaps Timmy should start his day with a little drinkie-poo. Just a helpful suggestion…
Tim, don’t drink, even if you are in pain, and besides it makes you see double trouble – leave the drugs and alcohol administers for getting the Ukrainian military into gear.
Ashkenazi the real nazis used the swastika on 1918 russian money before hitler invented it. tavor rifles dont just magically appear for everyone.
This statement on the Russian ruble notes and coins of 1918 is interesting, I could not find a link, hardly surprising of course. Say no more!
Excuse me, but this is the worst article on the Donbass crisis i ever read.
Have you actually read any?
The reasoning of this author for evacuation of Donbas is that the people there are stuck in the middle between Russian forces and Ukrainian forces. If it comes to war between Ukraine and Russia, the people will be in between and wiped out by revenge shellings from Ukranian forces or they will need to be evavuated and only then Russians free reign to wipe out Ukrainian forces that are invading Donbas without having to worry about the people stuck in between.
Now i understand what Ukronazis are trying to do: They are trying to lure Russia into Ukraine by provoking Donbas militia to retalliate and start a large war, all the while the Ukies are holding Donbas population as hostage (stuck in between) in case Russia invades, then the Ukrainian massacre of Donbas population will be blamed on Russia.
That is why Russia needs to evacuate the Donbas population first before war can start.
How long would it take to evacuate 2,302,444 people?
Ukrainians won’t last that long they’ll get a barrage of katushas
Metro2011
It is not the worst article on the Donbass, but it is rather surprising. Yes, the article presents plenty of truth. However, there are two points with which I disagree.
First of all, the author has stated “It seems outlandish to think that the Ukrainian Humpty-Dumpty, which is in the process of being knocked off the wall most unceremoniously by just about everyone, including Russia, the EU and the US, is going to break apart into such tidy, historically justifiable pieces”.
I am afraid it is going to break up into pieces, in fact into three basic pieces. And yes, this breakup will not be “tidy” and super efficient, but a break up into three parts will indeed happen, as stated by analysts. The Eastern part will be joined by the Southern part. The Western part, the former Galicia, will become an object of contention between Poland, Hungary and Romania. Poland, of course, wants it all. The Central part will temporarily exist as some sort of new Ukraine, but it’s only a matter of time before it, too, rejoins Russia together with the Eastern part.
Secondly, the author has mentioned evacuation of Donbass residents into Russia. Well now, theoretically anything is possible, but I must admit I am surprised by this possibility. Would Russians in the Donbass give up Donbass ? What is to prevent Ukraine moving into the Donbass once it has been evacuated ? And then what ? See NATO troops and missile systems being placed along the entire Russian border ? I think not. Then again, we shall see. I could be wrong.
The evacuation was going strong in 2014 and 2015. Donbass’ civilians were and are continuously shelled to force them out. In my opinion, anyone ready to leave already left long ago. Now, the issue is that an evacuation of the remainers by force is about as criminal as evicting them by force. In contrast to the criminal gang in Kiev, the Kremlin does not want to sink to the level of war criminals.
Whereas it is an idea worth considering, I think evacuating the Donbass people is impossible for the time being.
Many of the people left in the Donbass are very poor and do not have the means to leave. They have been living in the basements of their homes or other empty buildings to avoid Ukrainian shelling..
Anyone that has the MEANS to move out of the Donbass, already left long ago..
If Russia planned to evacuate these citizens, you would think that would have happened long ago. Russian citizenship does no good without the means to move there
Look up Eva Karen’s Bartlett on Twitter or FB..She is a journalist who has been with and interviewed many citizens in the Donbass.
Eva Karene Bartlett
evacuation of the people of the Donbas, the Donbass Russians would not give up their Donbas, they only left it temporarily (evacuation) until the adoption of the Minsk agreements and the establishment of Ukraine as a federation
In what regards for it seems the most logical to me Russia is a huge territory and could use a greater population, and it would solve the problem of the people living there from daily shelling and destruction of their infrastructure, creating a narrow buffer zone between the Ukraine and Russia I would much rather see a peaceful solution rather than another sponsored western war, let the west and the EU foot the bill with endless bailouts simply to create problems for Russia, they would have very shorty read the writing on the wall.
Care to explain why?
Agreed, Russians are not supposed to evacuate, Russians are supposed to die holding the line. Why change something that has worked all the centuries. Next the Far East and Siberia will be open to “evacuation”. Dmitry Orlov writes brilliant articles, but intellectualism isn’t everything, if your soul says don’t bother to retreat then you don’t retreat. During the Revolution the Cossacks were famous for charging machine gun posts blind drunk, just because they could, there are times when irrationality trumps rationality.
The soul is tied to the Earth, the Motherland.
The ZUSA is in the habit of murdering children by hundreds of thousands. The ZUSA has forged a special race of psychopathic persuasion: a ghastly Madeleine Albright, the City/FedReserve banksters, the traitorous Cheneys, Bushes, McCains, Clintons, Obamas, Kagans, Bidens, et al. Don’t expect any decency from this murderous scum.
The Russian lands will be back to Mother Russia. To defend the young lives in Donbass is the current priority.
Actually Dmitry’s argument would be valid if the West was strong and capable, then an evacuation would make sense for survival reasons. But the West is not strong and capable, on the contrary, the West is weak and pathetic. There is no need to run away from those who are weak and pathetic.
Tell me how Givi or Motorola would evacuate their ancestral lands.
Never. Going. To. Happen.
The Ukies would be slaughtered in their sleep.
Which one is the best one?! Link please…
If Donbass evacuated the people will have abandoned their resident status and have no standing,and thus Russia will have no standing to prevent the nazis from occupying Donbass. My friend Mr O is very clever, and I like his idea, but it needs refinement. (Previously in dialogue with Mr O I have observed that he tends to have great and creative ideas, which then tend to blind him to other’s constructive criticism.)
Of course and cadre of volunteer militia can stay behind to be protected by Russia guns and to keep possession.
Moving the old, sick, children, and ladies out of harm’s way – is good idea.
“(Previously in dialogue with Mr O I have observed that he tends to have great and creative ideas, which then tend to blind him to other’s constructive criticism.)”
Which facilitates his utility in environments of from each according to her/his facility, to each according to her/her needs even if she/he does not perceive needs.
In environments of coercion no one tends to perceive needs and their utility outwith opportunities to coerce he/she or be subject to coercion through having needs, in response to which he/she resort to protective mechanism, including but not limited to those whose outcomes “blind him to other’s constructive criticism.”
This hope is a significant component of attempts at “propaganda”; an iteration and re-enforcement of environments of coercion where such attempts can catalyse alienation to become a vector of transcendence.
Hilarious comment regarding ‘needs’ saying simply that needs can be forced or not and if forced can lead to some people feeling above or beyond that force.
In other words depending on the information recieved some might want to leave and others might not. Well said Magda!
Like Tim I read it and found the multiple scenarios more of a Monty Python finesse? All of which I was hoping would leave me with some satisfying feeling something could work out?
Alas! from all I’ve read of that which Putin and Lavrov and Zakharova put out I think as soon as the US or Nato or Zelenskiy move a finger to takeback one square metre it will be cut off and possibly up to the Dnieper?
Personally and I’ve said it elsewhere on this site……..
No matter what Putin does he will be rebuked and every attempt to crucify him will be attempted. Unless Putin seriously slaps down the contorted caricature which is Ukraine he will be saddled with the same problem set up by the US of a “Death with a thousand cuts”?
So Mr. Putin let the US know the game of narcissistic overlord has come to an end and the US Mainland could be next if you want to go that far!
The Ukrainian nationalists were created in the late 1990ies and early 2000s. In Ukraine. By propagandafilms such as the Holodomor. Framing real atrocities, real mass murder, real mass starvation. In a (to the globalists) politically useful way. Take Holodomor for example. What really happened was that Stalin’s collectivization of agriculture coincided with two bad harvests. And many million people starved to death, primarily in areas dependent on agriculture. A large portion of the people of Ukraine starved to death. But an even higher part of the population of Khazakstan. And large portions of many agricultural districts of Russia itself. This catastrophe was reframed to have been consciously directed at the Ukrainian nation. And given a name. And spread through the various organizations of the globalists. I have visited a lecture pushing this here in Sweden, when it was being revived 2014, by a Swedish journalist (Heimerson) who made a career in pay of the globalists.
As for the nazi stuff. No, there is no direct line back to the Nazis of WW2 as this article would have us believe. Its just, when a people reach for national symbols. When Ukraine tries to redefine itself as independent from Russia, as a nation of its own. The Galician Waffen SS is one of the first stations you reach, the last time Ukraine had an army, sort of. It is unavoidable that this will be part of forging a Ukrainian nation. Just as Russia is today reforging some parts of its less than happy past into glory. Peoples have the history they have. And a people has need of unity. Hence, whatever history a people has is glorified into creating the unity that is needed today.
Nations, peoples who accepted fascist ideology were people belonging to or wanted to join the western civilization.Nazism was interlinked with Social Darwinism and Germanic culture. Fascism was interlinked with the Vatican. That is why you had Galician fascism; western Ukrainians accept the Pope, they belong to western civilization. (Unrecognized) Orthodox church Kiev patriarchate’s (Middle Ukrainians) goal is to unite with the Vatican. Croat fascism (Ustasha); Croats are catholic. Slovak fascism; Slovaks are catholic. Romanian fascism; they are Orthodox but are a Latin people and feel they belong to western civilization. Bulgarian fascism; orthodox but Bulgarian elite always choose western civilization. You also had Greek fascism though they fought Italians; Greeks have been brainwashed by their Bavarian (German) royalty to denounce Byzantinism and accept German inspired Hellenism.
Im sorry, that is just chanting terms.
Today, Nazism and Fascism are not well defined ideologies. Especially not if you discuss them with the liberal west or the, well, if the Russian regime has an ideology. Since both have antinazism as part of their raison d’être. Nazism and Fascism are so important to both these systems of power it is hard to hold a rational discussion about what it even means. Especially since both systems of power are dependent on supressing national independence or ethnic relation to statehood.
Personally I would call Nazism war socialism in peacetime. The rest of what we call nazism is just German ethno nationalism.
But you could write bookcases full of books debating to and fro what it actually means. And get nowhere.
In my comment I discussed Ukrainians wanting to make a state of their own, today. Which is reasonable for formerly Polish Ukraine. They speak Ukrainian rather than Russian. They are Roman Catholics rather than Russian Orthodox. And they have a different history and experience than for example Poland. Since last time they had one of the hallmakrs of statehood, armed forces. They had so under nazi banners. Hence, it is inevitable that some nazi banners will be used when striking out for nationhood again today. No matter what you want to put into the term “Nazism”. Imho, Nazism today is whatever serves systems of power that are threatened by ethno nationalism. Which is not analytical.
@dave
‘The garbled slogans and ravings of the Ukrainian nationalists are straight from the Intermarium playbook. “We seek neither the EU nor Russia,” “Out with totalitarianism liberalism and decadent democracy!” says Dmytro Yorosh’s Right Sector paramilitaries.’
Well, what is wrong with that? The EU is a cesspit of corruption and destruction and US liberalism is the most destructive ideology to date, look at what it is doing to Western Europe? Look at what it is doing to USA? And “democracy” is turning out to be a sham. My country, or former country rather, has been utterly transformed to its very core, the biggest change in its entire history. Straight against the majority opinion of the people. Thats democracy for you.
Yes. I heard about the Intermarium. And I do not think it will work. However, why is it a bad idea, if it can be made to work? I dislike Poland’s current position because it is a stooge for USA. Or the Globalist Empire if you like. I like Russia as a counter weight to US hegemony and because it gives Europe an alternative. And because Russia is sovereign, unlike the rest of us. My main priority is to get US out of Europe. Because its dominance of us Europeans is extremely destructive for us. At the same time, Poland is a nation. And the other potential intermarium countries are also nations. They are too weak to preserve their independence against Russia. Or indeed, against former Germany, before it was dismembered. So would it not be good if they could become strong enough to maintain their independence from Russia without becoming the dogs of USA? For example, with an Intermarium alliance?
Anyway, intermarium is not going to happen. But I do not see anything bad with weaker countries banding together to help one another stay independent. Without being reduced to mere pawns of an alien empire across the sea.
The Holodomor was an intentional targeting of ethnic Russians and Ukrainians by Jewish Bolsheviks such as Lazar Kaganovich and Genrik Yagoda through policies such as the stealing of land, grain, and methods of murder other than famine.
Just because the Holodomor occurred does not mean that Russians should be blamed for the actions of the USSR, which was largely an anti-Russian and anti-Christian political entity. There is a reason the KGB hid the truth about Vladimir Ulyanov’s ancestry until recently. Ukrainians do not understand that Russians were victims of the USSR as well
Well, I used to believe the Ukrainian narrative, that was being forged in the late 1990ies. Which is close to what you say.
But lately I have listened to historian Stephen Kotkin. I think he gives a more plausible narrative. Socialism required collectivisation of agriculture. They tried first during revolution and civil war. But had to retreat to NEP and leave the countryside as it was, with market economy intact. But this was a huge threat to the revolution. But they were all afraid to do it. Until Stalin pushed it through. Out of ideological necessity. As Kotkin tells the story, it is not directed at anyone, it is just necessary, from a socialist standpoint. And the chaos and destruction the reorganization caused coincided with one or two bad harvests. And complete catastrophe.
I do not need a more complicated or elaborate explanation than that. At the same time, it is hard to see it not being made into politics in a place like Ukraine. By globalists. By nationalists. By anti communists. By antirussians. Just as it is impossible for Russia not to embrace the broad outline of USSR. Russia embraces its history, warts and all. And the USSR is redeemed by its heroic struggle and heroic feats against the Nazi invasion. So, we can see the dynamics and tensions of power here? The “holodomor” waiting to be used politically. Antinazism as a necessary and important leg for modern Russia to stand of, to redeem the bad parts of USSR if nothing else. They bounce off one another. Ukrainians desperate to forge a nation bringing up the bad parts of comunism, Russia using nazism to come to terms with its history, Ukrainians waving some nazi banners, Russia declaring the Ukronazis demons. And on and on it goes.
My dream soloution to this mess would be for the regions of Ukraine to vote. That way, Ukrainian Ukraine could come to peace with itself. But history does not work like that. Kiev wish to incorporate areas of Ukraine with weaker Ukrainian identity. And subjugate areas with Russian identity. Is most unfortunate. But here we see how you can keep the pot boiling with tales of Holodomor.
“Because dont you see! All of Ukraine was really Ukrainians. But the evil russians starved millions and millions of ukrainians to death and then moved in Russians, evil murderous stealing thievinig bastard russians!!!!”
Its impossible not to use such a potent tale. And round and round it goes. Especially since there might be some grain of truth in that accusation. Stalin moved people around. And Ukraine might have been extra hard hit. Or might have been hard hit during the civil war when it was a base for the whites. Shifting that cultural border between Russian identity and Ukrainian identity further west, by colonization. Or that is the way it is going to look from the Ukrainian side anyway.
“Hence, it is inevitable that some nazi banners will be used when striking out for nationhood again today”
It’s pretty pathetic when your main claim to “nationhood” is based on a couple of years under Nazi rule. I mean, is that all they have?
@Serbian girl
Yes, maybe it is pathetic. I think the stories of Holodomor are even more potent. Ukraine is a nation looking for reasons to exist and for some way to feel national pride.
It can not be annexed by Poland, I do not think. And Catholic Ukranian speaking Ukrainian can not be Russian. And will not become brother country of Russia for generations.
But you have to remember that these are games of manipulation from the school of the British Empire. Who have played these tricks and made people hate one another for centuries, all across the world, to make it cheaper to control them. So try to think friendly thoughts about the Ukranians? If you try to respect them, maybe it will be easier for them to resist the siren calls of the globalists. I doubt very much these narratives are being forged by Ukrainians themselves. A people need pride to exist. This pride comes from stories. If the stories are a bit silly to begin with, well, it is impolite to harp on about it? And unwise.
@Serbian girl
I mean, the story of Sparrow Field, patriotic story of Serbia (ok, sorry, not sparrow field, other bird, I only know bird in Swedish, not in english), it probably did not start out perfect. It gets moulded into something that is useful for nation building over time. Stories are not made when they happen, they are made when they are being told.
I hope that the Ukranian story will get better over time. And I hope it will be Ukrainians moulding it into what it becomes, rather than these goddamn globalist manipulators out of USA.
In German “das Amselfeld” The bird “Amsel” is the size of a starling, the male is black with a yellow beak the female is grey
In English: ‘blackbird’. In Gaelic ‘lon dubh’ – meaning exactly the same thing.
I used to listen a lot on Kuban Cossack Choir, I like patriotic music. Two of the most beautiful songs they sang, one was from Serbia and the other about Belarus. So much for “Russian arrogance” neh? Anyway, I think Serbian one is about thinking back on orange groves in beautiful Serbia? Timo daleko?
I for one do not understand why the former USSR industrial powerhouse cannot build its nationhood on this fact. Instead, Ukrainian nationalists select one of the most silly periods of the nations existence. Just to put its middle finger in the face of the Moskals?
Nationalism stays a pest: the hate of everything foreign.
Patriotism would be welcome: the love of the own culture.
I disagree. Beyond my family. I love my people. Because we are the same. For a thousand years. And more. My people is my extended family. You can call me feeling loyalty to people i am related to and identify with “a pest”. But that does not make me a monster.
As for hate. You know more about that than me, it would seem.
It’s proper to write ”Tamo daleko”, whisch means ”So far away” and it’s about longing for the motherland who was occupied in WWI when Serbian army was forced to left the country and went to Greek.
Erikassimo your comment makes you look uneducated and your comment on the nazi roots in the ukraine is just gibberish imho.
“Why 2019 Ukraine Imports Terrorists and Exports Terror 1933-1991”
https://thesaker.is/why-2019-ukraine-imports-terrorists-and-exports-terror-1933-1991/
“Why 2019 Ukraine Imports Terrorists and Exports Terror 1992-2019”
http://thesaker.is/why-2019-ukraine-imports-terrorists-and-exports-terror-1992-2019/
if i remember correctly there are links in both articles, but if i misremember Every Fact is Easily found If you know how a search engine works.
Nescience or ignorance?
Your choice, just remember that ignorance is a choice in the information age.
Per/Norway
So, according to you, the Ukrainians do not exist?
However, they do exist. And they are one of the closest ethnicity to ethnic Russians. Maybe, instead of painting them as monsters. Give your American liberalism time. And they will come around, when they realize how horrible you American liberals are?
Imho, it is silly to demonize Ukrainians. People are people. It is easy to see why Ukrainians think the way they think. In order to be a people, right now, they have to define themselves in some anti Russian way and they have to reach back to the last time they had any semblance of independence. That is what people do.
Like Norway when it dissolved the union with Sweden. It required anti Swedishness. Not because us Swedes had done anything unfair against the Norwegians. But because we had been the major partner in a defence union for 100 years. And the Ukrainians had a lot more to complain about than you Norwegians had.
As everyone knows, west Swedes (norwegians) have the same relationship with real Swedes as west Russians (Ukranians) have with real Russians. In lieu of real atrocities in history the west Swedes invent grievences to complain about the protection they enjoyed from real Swedes. And there is no end of complaining that the real Swedes did not honor their obligation to fullfil the defence union the west Swedes had unilaterally dissolved 1905 when WW2 came around 1939. Us Swedes were so evil for not staying allied to the west Swedes when they were attacked. Even thought the Norwegians had made it perfectly clear that they did not want anything to do with us.
But keep wagging your tail at your American master, like a good Ukra, uhu, Norwegian puppy dog.
So what exactly you mean?
Heil Bandera?
And
“No, there is no direct line back to the Nazis of WW2”
Really?
Come on please stop trolling this kind of BS
@Mike
Good, show me the direct link to the Nazis of WW2 through Canada. Leaders, organization, finance. Back up your claims.
@Mike
I do not know much about Bandera. But I know quite a bit about Johan Baner. One of the worst mass murderers of the Thirty Years War. When Sweden was still a nation, he was a military hero. He is hardly a hero in Germany? This is how us people function.
There are direct links between the so-called “Nazis” from Galicia in WW2 and today. The USA and Britain started supporting them straight after the war in 1946, which, when the Soviets found out about it led to the beginning of the Cold War. They also supported the so-called “Forest Brothers” in Latvia and Lithuania who were mostly former SS members. One of the people who was killed fighting for the “volunteer battalons” in 2014 was a retired US Army Colonel whose father was the leader of the Galician SS Division. He fled to America after the war and was given asylum. They were suppressed by the KGB from the 50s onwards but saw a revival in the late 80s when Gorbachev took over and allowed them to operate openly again. They were massively supported by the CIA and were essentially a front organisation for them in order to try and break up the USSR. They were now called the UNA-UNSO.
The word Nazi is thrown around a lot these days and has in most cases lost all meaning, I’ve seen for example how any form of nationalism in Sweden is referred to as “Nazism” even though Swedish nationalism traditionally has nothing to do with the Nazis. The Galicians were used as puppets by Germany in WW2 and now they’re used as puppets by the US/EU/Israel. It is ironic that these so called “Nazis” are literally paid and given orders by Jewish oligarchs but their leaders are corrupt and the ordinary members too stupid to realise they’re being manipulated. It’s similar to how Al-Qaeda and ISIS members in Syria believe they’re fighting an Islamic Jihad when in reality they’re just being manipulated into doing Israel’s bidding. These countries will support anyone if they think they can be useful idiots, no matter what their ideology is.
Of course if these “Nazis” ever took any action against Jews, they would immediately have all support from the US/EU/Israel cut off and would be completely demonised in the media. But as long as they’re only killing “Russians”, they’ll continue to be supported. It’s strange how Al-Qaeda and ISIS have killed hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, Libya and Syria, but have never once attacked Israel. I think that tells you a lot about who’s really behind them.
A very good treatise but I’m not sure a depopulated ‘no go’ zone will be implemented.
If I were to bet on anything, I’d bet on either status quo with Ukraine eventually standing down, or a Russian drive to the Dnieper after a Ukrainian provocation and coordinated with some type of Chinese/Russian joint strike on the US financial base.
The option Mr. Orlov presents is very sound and heck even creative. No lose of innocent lives neither of those territories. It is, in my mind, most logical and viable option according to the time we are living in. That is evacuation without starting a shooting war which may in turn spells into a large scale war. Two thumbs up for Mr. Orlov for presenting us with this option.
Reading through the 6 comments above made me remember why I no longer publish or allow comments on the open internet. This article appeared here by special one-time request by The Saker. As for the rest of you, buh-bye!
Well. I would be happy to listen to evidence of a direct link from the NSDAPs political organization in Ukraine 1941-1944. Through Canada. To today’s Nazis in Ukraine.
However, this is a very tall claim. And Canada is not known to tolerate nazis at all. Happily annulling the citizenship of nazis that are accused of warcrime and extraditing them back to Germany for example. Hence, I would like to see some evidence that backs up your claim is all. Until then, I go by more down to earth explanation.
@Erikassimo
Article by Jonathan Levy…
The Ukraine Crisis – It’s the Intermarium Plan Again
The garbled slogans and ravings of the Ukrainian nationalists are straight from the Intermarium playbook.
Political scientists attribute the Ukraine crisis to competition between Russia and the West or East Ukraine versus West Ukraine. While these simple explanations have their merits, there is much more at stake; nothing less the long planned absorption of Ukraine into the Intermarium and the break-up of Russia into toothless mini states.
Few in the Western media or academia would know that in 1920 an opportunistic Poland sought to make Ukraine, Lithuania, and Belarus its own satellites and fought a brief but bloody war with the nascent Soviet Union. But after defeating the Whites, the Red Army gave its full attention to the Poles and their advances turned into reverses as they were chased all the way from Kiev and Minsk back to Warsaw by Budenny’s Red Calvary. Warsaw was saved only by the soldiering of its Polish chief of staff Pilsudski who miraculously stopped the Red Army just outside the city –otherwise Poland would have been the 16th Soviet Republic.
The Poles never forgot their military humiliation and near annihilation of their just born state. Pilsudski who went on to be the Polish dictator developed two long range plans named the Intermarium and Promethean plans to make sure that neither Germany nor the Soviet Union would ever be able to grind Poland between them. The Promethean plan involved the breaking up of the USSR into small relatively harmless states by stirring up nationalism in Georgia, the Don and Kuban Cossacks, Ingushetia, Idel-Ural, Azerbaijan, Yakutistan, Armenia, Crimea, Karelia and Komi with the hopes of detaching them from a weak rump government at Moscow. This plan resembled something of the chaos that occurred in the early 1990s when Yeltsin could scarcely control his governors and Tatarstan and Chechnya were all but independent countries.
The Intermarium was to be a massive concentration of power in east central Europe as a counter balance between East and West with a vast federal union of peoples stretching between the Black sea and the Baltic. The constituent states were to include Poland, the Baltic countries, Belarus, Ukraine, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, and Croatia – all countries with sizeable Roman Catholic populations. The Intermarium on paper at least was large and powerful enough to supplant German and Russian influence in the Balkans and beyond.
To that end, the Polish Army absorbed the former Georgian, White Russian, Cossack and Ukrainian officer corps fleeing the USSR. But, the rise of Stalin and Hitler and Poland’s own problems with a large restive German minority quickly shelved these ambitious plans. The Promethean plan was briefly hijacked by Hitler who also sought to foment rebellion in the wartime USSR by recruiting foreign legions from among hapless POWs to be led by Nazi collaborators such as General Vlasov and the Ukrainian nationalist Bandera.
+Following World War Two, the CIA, Vatican, and MI6 reorganized the Prometheans and Intermarians into the openly fascist Anti Bolshevik Bloc and World Anti Communist league which welcomed former Nazis as long as they were anti Soviet too. Maidan agitator US Senator John McCain was once affiliated with the World Anti Communist League as an advisor and surely has had no qualms about his new friends in Kiev.
Notably all these Intermarium states are predominately Roman Catholic with the exception of the Ukraine. Yet even in the heart of the Orthodox Church, the Vatican has made major inroads. A long standing campaign of Ukrainization has dispossessed the Moscow Patriarchy in favour of the Rome affiliated Easter Rite Church and Autonomous Ukrainian patriarchy. The presence of numerous priests on the front lines of the Maidan is by design not chance.
The garbled slogans and ravings of the Ukrainian nationalists are straight from the Intermarium playbook. “We seek neither the EU nor Russia,” “Out with totalitarianism liberalism and decadent democracy!” says Dmytro Yorosh’s Right Sector paramilitaries. Yorosh who parades about under the black and red Bandera flag has been proposed as Deputy Minister in the new Ukrainian government.
However just as Poland failed in 1920 to hold Kiev so may it fail now. Warsaw seems to have forgotten to have shared its Intermarium plan with NATO, the EU, and USA which would no doubt be shocked at the emergence of a hitherto unknown East Central European federation. And Russia remembers all too well that Polish interference in Ukraine is aimed not just at Kiev but ultimately targets Moscow with the reestablishment of a hostile Polish alliance on its western border.
Therefore it may be a prophetic sign that on January 26, 2014, when Pope Francis released two white doves at the Vatican, in support of the “peaceful” Ukrainian protestors on the Maidan that the hapless doves were set upon almost immediately by a black crow and a white seagull. Speculation in the media was that the two emissaries of peace were presumably killed and eaten by their predatory cousins and never heard from again.
So too may Polish imperial ambitions end in Ukraine – a dismal failure crushed between Russia and the EU. Poland has perhaps overplayed its hand yet again. Warsaw and its allies have taken Kiev, but can they pay the price?
Jonathan Levy holds a PhD in Political Science and is an attorney member of the International Criminal Court Bar. He is adjunct faculty at Norwich University’s Diplomacy Program (Vermont) and Kaplan University’s School of Arts and Sciences. Dr. Levy is the author of The Intermarium: Wilson, Madison, & East Central European Federalism (ISBN: 978-1581123692)
@Dave
Thank you for reply. I answer you under my comment instead of under Orlovs as not to confuse the discussion.
” And Canada is not known to tolerate nazis at all”
Freeland is the grand daughter of a nazi-simpatizer, a newspaper owner who wrote very anti Semitic pieces in his newspaper, and then emigrated to Canada where changed the name. Freeland cannot enter Russia.
Regarding “Canada is not known to tolerate nazis at all” please see this Vandalized Nazi Monument in St. Volodymyr Cemetery in Oakville, Canada.
In regards to Nazi toleration: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/17/canada-nazi-monument-vandalism-hate-crime
A “hate crime” for defacing a literal hate group.
Mr Orlov,
I apologise for the madness above and I truly appreciate your insight and suggestion. It offers the safest option and gives Russia alot of maneuverability both on the domestic and international scene. I never even thought of this scenario. It might not be perfect but at most, it prevents unnecessary loss of lives
Mr. Orlov
Most of us appreciate your insights, don’t feel discouraged to publish because of some.
Thank you. I try to make sense.
Sad that you feel so threatened?
Indeed if we only hear what we believe and it’s repeated by others of our “Like”, then there is no point of anyone writing anything if they don’t follow the Leader in some conga line of mutual admiration.
In my opinion you should contribute and if I don’t like it then I need to justify why?
The fact the Saker has these view points is why I go to this site.
So please put away your ego because reading what you say makes me think about what I might say. And if I differ from you so be it but in either case others can think about what they might say.
Indeed I don’t necessarily agree with the Saker but he stirs my mind.
Mr Orlov, can I add, that whilst I completely understand your reaction, the people who opened up this comment section are not known here – indeed I’ve never seen either their names, any comment which is similar not only in it’s “content” but it’s appalling quality.
I suspect just one idiot troll decided to lay a little faeces and go away. Your comments are generally widely liked and approved here – and the intelligence level of the majority of readers and commentators is way higher than at most sites.
However, it does have the troll issue – I’ve been assaulted by one or two for daring to challenge the Ruling Narrative on the Covid Saga – and I know how they sicken.
But many here would much regret not having the chance to read more of your fine work, that I’m sure of.
Maybe i am an “idiotic troll”? But, i have relatives in Crimea, Kherson and Luhansk. And i know for sure that my relatives in Luhansk would rather die, than be forcibly evacuated like a second class cattle.
They have their right to their motherland, right to be protected. Nobody has the right to evacuate them.
The ppl in Donbass needs protection not genocide.
You don’t understand modern Russia. The evacuations would have to be strictly voluntary, just like the Covid vaccinations with Sputnik-V are. That said, the people of the Donbass have to choose: are they Russian or are they Ukrainian. And if they are Russian, then they would take the suggestions of the Russian leadership as orders, because that’s what it means to be Russian. Of course, if they wish to be Ukrainian (as you are, spelling Lugansk, a Russian place-name, with an H) then that would be their their choice.
Fight for every m2, it is yours and go west and north, it’s yours too. Don’t listen to pan Orlowszky!
Blunt way to agree with the criticism, constructive criticism. Good. The esteemed Mr O agrees with me!
Seriously, very smart and creative people tend to have closed themselves off from much of value, mixed with, I agree, much of no value. My (#6) is vindicated.
I am surprised though, that there is no constructive criticism from Mr O, not that there is any indication that he will read anything more here, as he’s said “bye” – thus proving my assessment of his approach to problem solving. He’s very good at it, except for his weakness with respect to other ideas. Why, after reading only six, did he leaves and fail to read the rest of the remarks? Does emotion limit his reading?
Although I agree with the evacuation idea he’s mooted, I am sure that such a movement of people would invite attack…it would create opportunities for the nazis..and make meat for propaganda. Good idea, tricky to implement.
@mr. P There is no other option than to evacuate the people of Donbass, or else they will become stuck between two heavily armed armies. Russia won’t be able to help (shoot the invading Ukronazis to pieces) with the Donbas population stuck in between. Russia need to hurry up with the evacuation, because the Ukronazis are about to invade and use them as human shield.
Dave, I agree that partial evac is probably a fairly practical method to minimize loss of innocents, but it is not the “only” option, and it depends on (As Mr O has said above (clarifying his meaning) , it must be voluntary.
Everybody on Earth is stuck, just now, between armies. Of course the incoming scrapmetal is not everywhere raining down.
Evac is not simple and is a dangerous undertaking liable to precipitate nasty “tactical” attack by nazi and the various criminal organizations in the “theater”. (9,400 people are said to have died with the evac ship MV Wilhelm Gustloff , 1945.)
Recently, Auslander (I believe) told us that the nazis lost tactical radio and radar and can’t fly – more or less, I would look at his words for the exact story – and that commercial and presumably military optic satellites got flashed with a warning shot from Rus laser…and so forth.
The nazis in Ukie and their bootleg fake government are in zuswang, or as has been also said, looking at checkmate in 3 moves. (So, also, are the nazis in US…the Dulles types, and their fake bootleg regime)
I am not so sure as some people that the nazis will attack Donbass. If they do, they die. Dead nazis are arguably suicides anyway. Buy the ticket, you take the ride. Either way.
Rather, I expect the Empire to change strategy, and put into place another stupid ploy in vain attempt to prolong the pirate empire and the “pauci” elite.
One might suppose they’ll go back to murdering specific individuals and ever more propaganda…and try to cook up more treasons.
I am not worried about the Empire lasting much longer…what’s the Russian word for the chaotic period of the 1990’s? “Smuta? “Something like that I think… For US people the looming period of chaos does worry me, a little.
In Imperial collapse, it is the army that is last to fall, right after the treasury is looted… The treasury sure looks looted. I would not be surprised to see the army put the very popular guy who won the last election back into office, this year, possibly by August…in order to save itself and the Constitution, or what’s left of it.
Empire is kaputski, we’re watching the fall.
” I agree that partial evac is probably a fairly practical method to minimize loss of innocents, but it is not the “only” option”
It is not the only option, but an option that has been acted upon by a significant number of people since the Russian Federation offered the option of citizenship of the Russian Federation and benefits derived therefrom to Ukrainian citizens and others, some of whom decided to accept citizenship of the Russian Federation and benefits derived therefrom without relocation to the Russian Federation, whilst some relocated to the Russian Federation.
“but an option that has been acted upon by a significant number of people “
with periodic upgrading of options:
https://www.rt.com/russia/521134-golden-passport-foreign-investments/
partly in anticipation of opponents’ attempts of sanctioning sovereign debt of the Russian Federation :
https://www.rt.com/russia/521127-us-sanctions-new-round/
whilst US soverign debt is under increased instability.
“He’s very good at it, except for his weakness with respect to other ideas.”
Some would hold that ” his weakness with respect to other ideas.” precludes “He’s very good at it” as a function of “weakness” if it refers to analysis, “which facilitates his utility in environments of from each according to her/his facility, to each according to her/her needs even if she/he does not perceive needs.” given he appears limited in matters requiring avoidance of reliance on belief.
“Seriously, very smart and creative people tend to have closed themselves off from much of value, mixed with, I agree, much of no value.”
Such practices tend to be restricted to specific social relations which seek to encourage, the conflation of “analysts” with analysts, and reliance upon, and reflexive resort to, “emotion”.
“Although I agree with the evacuation idea he’s mooted…”
A key difference between “analysts” and analysts is that “analysts” tend to linearly extrapolate from “certainties” and propose “one solution”, where as analysts tend to focus on various interpretations of the data including the assumptions inherent in their methods of framing and interpretation.
Consequently “Analysts” tend to the view that they have a level of omniscience, where as analysts realise that they are not omniscient and require the co-operation/input of others.
Resort to emotional responses catalysed by interpreting co-operation in assessment with “attack” precludes co-operation not restricted to in assessment.
In some social relations this resort is encouraged and the outcome is generally some assay of limitation of co-operation as outlined in a comment above:
“In environments of coercion no one tends to perceive needs and their utility outwith opportunities to coerce he/she or be subject to coercion through having needs, in response to which he/she resort to protective mechanism, including but not limited to those whose outcomes “blind him to other’s constructive criticism.
This hope is a significant component of attempts at “propaganda”; an iteration and re-enforcement of environments of coercion where such attempts can catalyse alienation to become a vector of transcendence.”
Thanks. It’s a distinct possibility, one that will prevent a massive loss of life. In Balkan terms it’s a voluntary ethnic cleansing of the Donbass but done as a strategic move rather than as a consequence of military or political defeat.
It will however require a hard sell to convince residents who are attached to their locales. They may agree if there is hope of return.
Dear Dmitry
I also want to apologize for some of the comments above which should not have been posted. I won’t remove them now because I want people to see what triggered your response. What I can tell you from experience is this: 1) the best articles get the nastiest comments and 2) for 1 rude and condescending comment posted there are 10 readers who agree with what you wrote.
I thank you again for agreeing to let us post your column!
Kind regards
The Saker
… and probably a few dozen who read, learn, and don’t comment.
I’m intrigued by this idea <>. And, just in time delivery, here are the robots
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84NiP-zxK18
Concur. Dmitry Orlov’s piece was very well written and, as you say, that was by itself what triggered the very first — utterly moronic — comments above.
Evacuating the residents of the Donbass could be a sensible way ahead as it will keep them out of harm’s way and considerably facilitate a harsh Russian response if and when the Ukronazis and their ”foreign advisors” try to step up right to the border there. Given Russia’s labour shortage, the evacuees will not have to live on hand-outs but may contribute productively to the well-being of Russian society.
On the subject of site moderation again: Apart from erratic blog barfs such as in the opening of this very comment thread, a more permanent nuisance here appears to be a ”seasonal” thing: Unintelligible word salads with Tourette tics about evaluation / purpose / lateral / function, and always posted under a new nick when the ”season” sets in. Slightly less abominable than outright offense but trolling it is, absolutely.
I am dazzled. What happened? Not a single caustic remark! Great!
I agree with what you said, including the bit on the word salad. A special trolling technique in my opinion. Very efficient, much more so than straight trolling which can be spotted at first glance. You waste time trying to parse the message, giving it the benefit of the doubt. But it’s just skewed utterings designed not to make sense.
I am guest here. Apologies if I have failed in respect to host or to author of the extended thought that made myself think and reevaluate enough to comment. Men who put themselves out there, who put their feet down, who make an argument, who make a stand. Are to be respected above others. IMHO. To do, to make, to persevere. To defend. To brave the gates of hell. What else is there? If Orlov did not stick out his neck, what value would his neck be to begin with?
Sale Orlov. Sale.
I fully agree. Dmitry has produced a well written article that provides a lot of context and finally comes up with a novel idea for the solution of this dangerous conflict. Hat-tip to Dmitry!
Like others, I find some of the earlier comments here completely beyond the pale. But, unfortunately, one has to be careful when responding to such nonsense. A couple of weeks ago, in the comments section of another article, some people were gleefully fantasizing about a nuclear exchange between the PRC and the US with 10s of millions of dead. When I referred to this as infantile and idiotic, it was my comment that was suppressed… hmm.
Yes. An interesting and insightful article. History and strategic creativity. Too many stupid comments, unfortunately. Thank you.
Hello Mr. Orlov,
thank you for an interesting article; I read it with great pleasure as usual with your pieces. But please, there is no need to care so much about the quality of the comments. Although I agree: they are seldom encouraging for the author of the article. I am sure we are many appreciating your insight and your refreshing style of delivering the message, still, I did not think it necessary to give you the well-deserved positive feedback. My mistake, will be corrected, so please, keep up the good mood and the good writing
Hey, what doesnt kill makes you stronger. Use the trolls comments to grow a thicker skin.
My only caveat is that up to day, we where always surprised by RF/putins solutions, so now that yours is written, you have diminished the chance of it happening.
Other than that, kudos to you sir, a creative solution (or at least the initial steps) to a thorny problem.
Best regards, keep up the good work!
Your caveat is a non sequitur. Can you see the RF Security Council all going “Oh noes, we can’t use this brilliant idea now that Orlov has posted it all over the internets! We’d look imitative and unfashionable!”? I can’t.
“Can you see the RF Security Council all going “Oh noes, we can’t use this brilliant idea now that Orlov has posted it all over the internets! We’d look imitative and unfashionable!”? I can’t.”
me neither.
otoh, i think you presented a good idea mr Orlov. If Russia chooses such a alternative i hope the Donbass citizens see the wisdom in being evacuated.
Per
Dear Mr. Dmitry Orlov, thank you!
“Can you see the RF Security Council all going “Oh noes, we can’t use this brilliant idea now that Orlov has posted it all over the internets! We’d look imitative and unfashionable!”?”
We can make referendums, votes in each our country to demand our governments to FINISH all this wars NOW and to pull all the soldiers back! The whole people must hold together, stand up and say: “NO!” And the soldiers happily can return to their families and enjoy beautiful summer holidays with their dearly beloved ones, which they otherwise would never see again!
Agreed. Comments should only be allowed for people with their real names. At least we get rid of silly comments and silly names.
It depends… You want to get all comments?
I could use just about any good looking name, and be a troll just the same.
Or you want to go trough a kyc (know your client) process just like in the banks where someone validates identities against oficial documents with 2fa (2 factor autentication) to avoid impersonations?
I for one, due to professional constraints cannot use my name.
If someone feels safe posting their real name on a countercurrent zone a website, please do!
I dont, and suspect more feel like I do.
Bonjour. There are simple ways to register commentators with real names via email or phone number verification.
Would eliminate most of the trolls and the ones expressing nonsense hiding under fantasy names.
A proper moderation only works by blocking email/phone verified culprits.
Cheers from France.
I don’t think you understood what I said.
Anyone could troll with email and phone number verification too if it was supported to do it. (aka professional trolls)
On the other hand, I personally, and suspect not alone, wouldn’t hand my real data to a countercurrent zone A website. For fear of reprisals, job security in particular.
Alas, I don’t hand out my personal data to anyone or any site on the internetz, unless I’m completely forced to by law. I know too much about to many things to do otherwise.
In any case, I’m sure your idea is not worth it on this site, otherwise it would have been implemented already. :)
It’s a fine article Orlov, if only because it shows that you can think outside of the box, as they say. And I say the box is the master’s mind, and as I repeat to all those who have the patience of listening (or reading): in our times marked by a new chapter of colonial imperialism aka Anglobalisation the master’s mind is the Anglo mind.
по-братски Орлов, dale duro, camarada, Roberto
Dmitry, my dear, we – as contributors to Saker’s blog, we have all expierence this, so please – have a heart and don’t abandon us! The commentry you have read was mostly from people not used to reading though-provoking stuff, and therefore their inane, ignorant responces. I have written four essays for Saker’s blog and each of them had quite a few similar comments from just such people – the minds are closed, attitudes aquired and firmly shaped and nothing will be allowed to enter to challenge that! Any new information that could present such challenge will be mocked, ignored and dismissed.
Happens here all the time, the good news is that this site is also populated by very intelligent people who can think objectively, rationally and analitically. That is why we are still here. These people are probably still asleep.. :)
I had the same idea. Russia is huge. Nationalise Deripaska’s, Abramovich’s, Graff’s of Sber Bank and others stolen property as well as increase tax to American and EU companies which will be more than enough to finance relocation and setting up homes for the millions that will want to come. Then explode something dirty in the Donbas and let the drones roam.
The Donbas population in great deal is made up of the Serbs who fled the Ottomans in the 17th century. They are sturdy and tough people. They will understand it.
Hmmmmm….Donbass residents are fiercly patriotic over their generational local culture and homeland. Their preference would be to stay and be sufficiently defended….sue for war crimes and compensation for physical damages and loss of social pensions etc.
West would see this as a victory and people like Tymoshenko nuke the russians would be pleased too.
So what would happen to Ukraine opposition politicians and parties and supporters….they are left to their fate or should be evacuated too? What would happen to orher regions eg Kharkiv that might be interested in their own autonomy?
would be the best solution. before having read the evacuation option in the text above i thought myself “why not evacuate?” if this comes even in my mind…perhaps there are even more ppl thinking of that.
p. s.: as a german: there are some – unfortunately still too few – germans who see very clearly what the us-nato-eu-warmongering is all about. we don’t want war. older ppl who also fall for the c-hoax may still see russia as enemy. the yonger ones don’t so much. many waking up because of the c-hoax. that’s good. we don’t want stasi-fascist IM erika (aka angela merkel) and this regime will be gone very soon. it would be best if it would be gone sooner than a nuclear war could start. and there are indeed many ppl who hate eurocrats etc etc so there is hope.
p.p.s.: i heared that there are no nuclear weapons at all. is anyone here having reputable information about that? (i really mean it!)
“i heared that there are no nuclear weapons at all.”
After 2062 atomic bombs having exploded in wwiii (“cold” war) there is still a lot left over (from there the danger). In big parades it could be that they drive just dummies around town (for security of the whole country), but otherwise there where too much shortsighted people building atomic weapons instead of refusing such a bad work (better starve than do that!).
And the atomic power stations – other atomic weapons – included (if you speak German):
„Die Gefahren der Atomkraftwerke
6. … Das tueckische an einem verunfallten Atomkraftwerk ist nun, dass hier radioaktive Stoffe in die Umwelt gelangen, die, einmal entwichen, keine Kraft der Welt je wieder zurueckholen kann. Diese gelangen in die Luft und werden eingeatmet (radioaktives Jod, radioaktiver Wasserstoff [Tritium], radioaktive Edelgase, aber auch Festkoerper als Aerosole). Der Rest wird ueber weite Landstriche verteilt und deponiert und ueber die Nahrungskette aufgenommen. Nach einem grossen Atomunfall ist das betroffene Gebiet fuer Jahrhunderte bis Jahrtausende daher vielleicht nicht immer voellig unbewohnbar (wer dort wohnen will, kann es um den Preis erhoehten Krebs- und Missbildungsrisikos ja tun), faellt aber vollstaendig fuer die landwirtschaftliche Nutzung aus.
Ein Land wie Deutschland waere auf Jahrhunderte voellig unbewohnbar deshalb, weil es sich nicht mehr selbst ernaehren koennte. Um aber landwirtschaftliche Produkte einfuehren zu koennen, muesste man ja etwas anderes exportieren/tauschen koennen, etwa Industrieerzeugnisse – welche aber kaum Absatz finden duerften. Die Gesundheitskosten wuerden vermutlich ohnehin die Haelfte des Bruttosozialproduktes auffressen. (Wer uebrigens vor einer solchen Atomkatastrophe fliehen will, wird erschossen – mit Radionukliden verseuchten Personen wird die Ausreise per Militaer-Kordon mit Schiessbefehl verwehrt; fragen Sie in Ihrem Landratsamt und Ihrer Bundeswehr-Standortverwaltung nach, welche Absperrbefehle die haben und wo im Keller die entsprechenden Schilder lagern! Ich weiss, wovon ich rede.)
7.) Aus diesem Grunde sind also Laender mit Atomkraftwerken nicht mehr verteidigungsfaehig. Schon Laender mit Staudaemmen, bei denen flussabwaerts grosse Menschenmengen wohnen, sind militaerisch erpressbar, aber immerhin wuerde bei einem Dammbruch ja nicht das gesamte Land zerstoert, sondern eben nur, wer physikalisch vom Wasser erreicht werden kann. Und danach waere das Land nicht wesentlich verseucht (ja, ja, ein paar Oeltanks sind mit aufgeschwemmt worden …), und koennte wieder aufgebaut werden.
Atomkraftnutzer haben aber das Problem, dass sie ihre AKW abschalten muessen, sowie der Krieg absehbar oder erklaert wurde (das sehen alle Szenarien vor, das ist nicht meine “Erfindung”). Dazu werden die Reaktorbrennstaebe ausgelagert (in die von zara geschriebenen Abklingbecken!), um wenigstens das Risiko der Freisetzung zu verringern, denn mit jedem Tage des Nicht-Angriffes klingen ja ein paar Radionuklide mehr ab.
8.) Andererseits haben die Staaten aber wegen des unloesbaren (nicht etwa ungeloesten! – sondern wirklich unloesbaren) Problems der Wiederaufarbeitung und Endlagerung eben diese Abklingbecken bereits mit den Brennstaeben mehrerer Jahre bis Jahrzehnte vorherigen Betriebes “vollgeknallt”. Und diese Abklingbecken weisen keinerlei Schutz gegen ernstgemeinte Angriffe auf, d.h. sie sind mit einfachsten Mitteln zu sprengen.
9.) All das ist von den Militaers laengst durchgespielt…”
verfasst von CrisisMaven (https://crisismaven.wordpress.com/), 05.12.2010, 16:29
„Atomkraft ist nicht mit Demokratie und Rechtsstaat vereinbar:
Der “Radioaktive Zerfall der Grundrechte”
verfasst von CrisisMaven , 20.03.2011, 09:59
… denn (Kinder-) Leukaemie ist eher ein strahlen- denn ein chemisch induziertes Phaenomen. Die naheliegende ursaechliche Erklaerung gerade bei dieser Verlaufsform ist Radioaktivitaet. Interessanterweise bemueht die atomfreundliche Wissenschaft gerade an dieser Stelle den Zufall, den sie bei der Havarie eines AKW aber ausschliesst.
Um das Ganze aber zu erfassen, so dass es wissenschaftlich-statistisch Sinn ergaebe, muesste man die Daten nicht-anonymisiert erheben, um Verlaeufe verfolgen und mit moeglichen Ursachen korrelieren zu koennen. Das waere der direkte Weg in den Ueberwachungsstaat.
Atomenergie fuehrt zum “Radioaktiven Zerfall der Grundrechte” (1), wie schon vor Jahrzehnten ein eminenter Jurist nachwies. Atomkraft ist, selbst wenn sie technisch dann doch beherrschbar waere, nur um den Preis einer Diktatur – und zwar ueber Jahrtausende (Stichwort “Atomare Priesterschaft” (2)! – zu haben. Will das deutsche Volk das?“
(1) http://www3.wsws.org/de/2001/apr2001/gorl-a05.shtml
(2) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomsemiotik#Thomas_Sebeok
Crisis Maven (http://dasgelbeforum.net/forum_entry.php?id=209422)
Beside workers’ strikes and votes, I see as a solution:
https://www.silvacourses.com/betterworld.htm,
(https://josesilva.info, http://www.jose-silva.net)
We should now finally left internet to solve our real problems, BEFORE they blow up!
Don’t discuss, if you can act!
Bye bye!
Google translation,MOD:
“The dangers of nuclear power plants
6.… The treacherous thing about a nuclear power plant that has been involved in an accident is that radioactive substances get into the environment here, which, once escaped, no power in the world can ever bring back. These get into the air and are inhaled (radioactive iodine, radioactive hydrogen [tritium], radioactive noble gases, but also solids as aerosols). The rest is distributed and deposited over large areas and taken in via the food chain. After a major nuclear accident, the affected area may not always be completely uninhabitable for centuries or millennia (if you want to live there, you can do so at the price of increased cancer and malformation risk), but it is completely unavailable for agricultural use.
A country like Germany would be completely uninhabitable for centuries because it could no longer feed itself. But in order to be able to import agricultural products, one would have to be able to export / exchange something else, such as industrial products – which, however, are unlikely to be sold. Health care costs would probably eat up half of the gross national product anyway. (Anyone who wants to flee from such a nuclear disaster, by the way, is shot – people contaminated with radionuclides are refused to leave the country with a military cordon with a shooting order; ask your district office and your Bundeswehr site administration which closure orders they have and where in the basement the corresponding ones Store signs, I know what I’m talking about.)
7.) For this reason, countries with nuclear power plants are no longer defensible. Even countries with dams, where large numbers of people live downstream, can be militarily blackmailed, but at least the entire country would not be destroyed if the dam breaks, but only those who can physically be reached by the water. And after that the country would not be significantly contaminated (yes, yes, a few oil tanks were flooded with …), and could be rebuilt.
Nuclear power users have the problem that they have to shut down their nuclear power plants as soon as the war is foreseeable or has been declared (all scenarios envisage this, this is not my “invention”). For this purpose, the reactor fuel rods are relocated (in the cooling tanks written by zara!) In order to at least reduce the risk of release, because with every day of non-attack a few more radionuclides fade away.
8.) On the other hand, because of the unsolvable (not unsolved! – but really unsolvable) problem of reprocessing and final storage, the states have already “bogged down” these decay basins with the fuel rods from several years to decades of previous operation. And these fountain pools have no protection whatsoever against serious attacks, ie they can be blown up with the simplest of means.
9.) All of this has long been played out by the military … ”
written by CrisisMaven ( https://crisismaven.wordpress.com/ ), 05.12.2010, 16:29
“ Nuclear power is not compatible with democracy and the rule of law:
The “radioactive decay of basic rights ”
written by CrisisMaven, 03/20/2011, 09:59
… because (child) leukemia is more of a radiation than a chemically induced phenomenon. The obvious causal explanation for this form of development is radioactivity. Interestingly enough, it is precisely at this point that atomic-friendly science tries to take a chance, which it rules out in the event of a nuclear power plant accident.
In order to capture the whole, however, so that it would make scientific-statistical sense, one would have to collect the data non-anonymously in order to be able to follow processes and correlate them with possible causes. That would be the direct route to the surveillance state.
Atomic energy leads to the “radioactive decay of basic rights” (1), as an eminent lawyer demonstrated decades ago. Even if it were technically controllable, atomic power is only available at the price of a dictatorship – for thousands of years (keyword “Atomic Priesthood” (2)!). Is that what the German people want? “
(1) http: / /www3.wsws.org/de/2001/apr2001/gorl-a05.shtml
(2) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomsemiotik#Thomas_Sebeok
Crisis Maven ( http://dasgelbeforum.net/forum_entry.php ? id = 209422 )
Beside workers’ strikes and votes, I see as a solution:
https://www.silvacourses.com/betterworld.htm ,
( https://josesilva.info ,http://www.jose-silva.net )
Exellent!
This article aught to be trenslated into Russian with a synopsis summing up the final concluding suggestions posted at the top of the article.
And then mailed to all top leaders in the Kremlin and the Russian foreign office.
The moves suggested all-in-all constitute one single strategem somewhat alike to Zhūgé’ Liáng’s “Empty City Gate” strategems from the Three Kingdoms’ period in China (A.D. 200), but much expanded and elaborated. Must do!
Another excellent article by the very erudite Mr. Orlov.
I have already read it, as receive Mr.O’s Facebook pages and subscribe to his site – and found this nice summation to be as good as they always are – but hadn’t thought of the idea of a mass relocation of the people, leaving the land of Donbass empty, but guarded.
It would certainly pull the rug out from under the aggressors – and stop idiocies,like the UK’s DailyMail leading heading of “Russian Aggression” .
But I wonder if the people would go. So many do the emotional knee jerk in place of actual thinking “I’m not leaving here, its my home, why should I go, we will stay and we will defeat them. After all they have killed here, I wont leave it to them”. I mean, given that any of them can just up sticks and go to Russia anyway, why did those parents so tragically stay within range, with a 5 yr old?
Because I know you wouldn’t have seen me for dust, heading over the border with my 2, at that age. So – could Putin get through this, an carry out such a plan? I dont know, but it’s certaily very innovative, so kudos to Mr. Orlov.
Evacuation of a population is not a new idea…if i recall my history correctly. What was the Russian response when Napoleon attacked Moscow for example? …and how did Napoleon respond thereafter? ..So Mr Orlovs idea has its merits.
Thought provoking.
But also worth debating.
And debate often involves a different point of view.
There are flaws in Mr Orlovs logic, the primary one being that whilst Russia may have a mature doctrine of “we have enough territory,” and an evacuation pulls innocent people totally out of harms way in a disputed region, unfortunately the US and UK and its NATO satraps certainly continue to want to gain more territory and control, whatever the cost (The EU has a special department dealing entirely with expansion). Whether Russia threatens retaliation or not, these western interests have been quite resolute and imaginative in their efforts at creeping infiltration and attrition and will not stop, however destructive their efforts. it is primarily the fundamentalist narcissism and control-freak nature of the western financial world and their hold on morally corrupt western leaders that needs to be confronted. That is the source. Follow the money.
The ideal scenario would be for Russia to call the bluff of NATO and regain control over the whole of the Ukraine and clean it up and lock it forever in place so no outside interests can destabilise the region ever again…but i know i am being idealistic.
Read Russian constitution, Ch. 67: 2.1. The Russian Federation ensures the protection of its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Actions… aimed at alienating part of the territory of the Russian Federation, as well as calls for such actions, are not allowed.
End of story, I think.
I too think it is a solution very much worth debating. First up I have to say I’m an outsider and though following events online since the Maidan period, I have no ‘skin in the game’ as they say. My additional thought would be, couldn’t the Donbass civilian population be given the choice either to go west or east for safety? If a schedule could be presented, of days for each, that seems a very civilized way to go about it, perhaps reducing tensions at the same time as providing a template for other confrontations between armies with such forces arrayed against one another. And their leaving need not be permanent, should hopefully then dialogue ensue (with UN oversight). At least, the grandfather could take his chickens, and another five year old child need not be killed.
I thank those above who were discussing ways in which Ukraine as a nation could be strengthened, each divided region finding the other acceptable as part of a common heritage, torn as that heritage has been. (And thanks to Mr. Orlov for those maps – they really helped me understand a bit more about this difficult situation.)
I like the idea of people with different cultures able to keep their own and appreciate others. I live near Santa Fe, city of Holy Faith – Catholics named it, but we are a diverse bunch, and I’m Orthodox. Back at the millenium time, we Orthodox sang our hymns at a concert in Saint Francis (Catholic) Cathedral and the Cathedral overflowed. I will never forget it. Here, in the heart of the beast, as many think of the US, that happened.
It’s nearly Orthodox Easter, Pascha. Once in my little church Carmelite nuns came on Easter night – they thought of us as their forefather church, and we welcomed them. On that night, when the first verses of Saint John’s Gospel are read, it was our tradition and is in many US Orthodox churches, to have readers say the first verses each in their own language. You cannot but feel the goosebumps run up and down your spine, I promise you, while that is happening!
It’s a good idea — send those who want to go to safety, until their homes are safe again.
Souvenez-vous de l’abandon de Moscou à l’approche de Napoléon…
——————–
Google-translate from mod:-
“Remember the abandonment of Moscow as Napoleon’s approach …”
“Ukro-Nazis are about to be ordered into battle against Russia by a Jewish comedian (Vladimir Zelensky, president) who got elected thanks to a Jewish oligarch (Igor “Benny” Kolomoisky).”
Excuse me but isn’t this sentence the all-important one in this entire essay?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/putins-rabbi-says-challenging-governments-is-not-jewish/
I sincerely hope Christians aren’t going to be murdering Christians like in times past while our enemies just laugh / mock and say ‘they’re just Christians?’
No, it’s not too important. It’s just a joke. And not a particularly funny one.
You are the one with an agenda. I just do analysis.
I thought the article was very clever and creative, in that it looks for a way of avoiding more misery and bloodshed. Of course the armchair generals don’t like it as they get their fix watching wars unfold, its interesting and exciting for them…as they aren’t there. Thank you for a good article.
Thanks Mr Orlov for writing up about this strategic possibility. I scratched my head in the beginning, then read it again, and understood that such a mass voluntary migration can save lives and leave the empire with a red face.
Judo indeed.
It’s the opposite of ethnic cleansing since it’s not dictated by the aggressor, and the vacated land does not become a prize for the aggressor.
Dear Mr. Orlow;
You live in Russia and you are concretely concerned with the welfare of your compatriots. You remind the world how Mother Russia has already taken care of 1/2 million of her daughters and sons.
Nothing less than brilliant to remind us that Russia will continue on the same path.
Thank you.
Signed. A westerner cornered in a dead end.
PS: When I tell my relatives that if I were younger I would emigrate to Russia, to have a land to cultivate and decent neighbor to pray to the lord, away from woke horror, they do not understand.
I too have told my three sons that they should consider emigrating to Russia. I’m an old man too broken and bent from a lifetime of hard, but satisfying work, to lead the way but my mind is sound and I can see clearly the collapse of integrity, work ethic, and fair play that is creeping into many parts of Canadian society. The old Canada still exists in the small rural communities that have strong church congregations and ample employment in the resource industries. But the big urban centres of political power are far down a road that leads off a cliff I’m afraid.
And yes Dimitri is right, as any Canadian that has any experience with Ukrainian expats who arrived here after WWII, in his understanding of the support the current government in the Ukraine gets from this expat community. Freeland’s politics are just the tip of the spear.
As for his seemingly blunt response to some of the comments here, be warned, Dimitri takes no prisoners and suffers not fools. It’s part of his charm. I’m a subscriber to his blog and always delight in the announcements of a new essay in my email. His perspective as a Russian son who has been steeped in American culture is unique and insightful. I’d have a glass of cider with him any day of the week.
We Westerners are too stupid to (removed language,MOD). The Germans in particular, since they have been indoctrinated for decades. They accept everything. And in order not to have to leave their wishful world, they believe everything that the first two TV stations report, which the government has fed them.
I, too, am a prisoner of the West, of hypocritical Germany.
What an informative and amazing read!
Regarding the organised pre-arranged population transfer proposed by Orlov, the last time I believe something like this was attempted was in 1923 with the population exchange between Greece and Turkey. It involved 1.6 M people. Many of them died during this exchange! Here we are we are talking about 4.6 M people…
Not saying it couldn’t be done but it would be a daunting task.
What would be left is a de-populated buffer zone in Donbass. But what about the rest of the Black Sea coast. Wouldn’t there be a strategic value for Russia to have parts of that?
Dear Sister, you are very kind and it seems trying to historically justify (removed insult ,MOD) pan Orlovszky’s proposal of Russians leaving their land. I think Russia will find a way to help evacuation in other direction!
How do you propose Russia evac 4.6million w/out anyone get shoot from the back?
or is there a number you think is acceptable as colleteral damage? say 1 million? and the other 3.6M return safely to mother Russia?
I have enjoyed most of your articles in the past but this one… pls let us know more of your thinking/analysis how the logistic or war plan is going to work since diplomatic avenues is closed off. You know very well the west would love to see 4.6M body bags.
Thanks
The Russians have no choice than to evavuate, the Ukronazis are willing to use the population as a human shield. The problem is that a temporary power vacuum might be created the moment the evacuation starts, and the Ukronazi taking opportunity of this power vacuum and momentum, moving along with the refugee flow behind their back, this could cause the Donbas militants to flee with the refugees, this chaos might confuse the Russian army too. Urkonazis could be at Russia’s border in the Donbass if they make use of this power vacuum and momentum.
Similar thing happened in the Krajina (Croatian Operation Storm, 1995).
Evac is a logistic problem, not a cultural problem.
If 4.6M agree to evac, it could be as smooth as crimea, russia and VVP will go to great lenght to bring home ‘russians’ and russians. I am sure of that.
But we have here, as DO shares more via reply to some post here, ‘what it means to be Russian’ points to more of a cultural problem here… and thats your internal/history stuff at your turf over there…
If itd be a pure logistic problem, China can move 4.6M for you, quite easily, for a small price.
And we are at a very late stage of the game here – Evac? forced or volunteer, should be consider in the early days… and surrounded by enemies, evac should be done as stealth as possible. Obviously theres alot of other problem associated with that…
So to answer my own question, which I thought about it long time ago, when I first heard about this possibility some years ago on russia talk-show – How would China do it if the population is chinese in that kind of geography and in the late stage of the game?
China can do it one of 2 ways –
1) for every evac person will be escorted by 2 china military personnal, and we can do it in batches of 500K at one go and that will be just several rounds and we are out. Meaning, there will be 1 million PLA used to escort 500K evac person at a time and repeat several times. 4.6M will take just under 10 rounds, say within a month.
2) china can ask and send the chinese UN troops in to do the evac, with possibly PLA watching from the skies. This could possible buy them more time, say 6 months.
Both strategy basically dares the west, if they shoot, they will be shooting at the PLA or chinese UN troops, de facto PLA.
point is – At this late stage of the game, to deal with batshitcrazy, we just need to up the bet. And we have REAL toys too, never forget that.
again back to the discussion here, you may very well need to resolve the cultural problem, before we ponder and then work out the logistic problem of evac, forced or volunteer.
… but again, there is ALWAYS a solution, the question in the price…
possible do what porky did – throw lots and lots of candies to the nazis/USSA and ask them to take a ‘rest’ while the logistic is work out by the russian side. maybe?
after all, their price tag has always been, in all their ‘war on terror’, ‘you want to save lives, pay up.’
I am sadden by what is coming to the ukies population there…
I am not sure how china can ‘help’ at this late stage of the game…
I wish VVP and his boys the very best and pray for their safe return to their family
be well be safe
3 million settlers is chaos and given a far bigger confrontation is coming than the distraction in the ukraine I think Russia should totally crumple any party involved in forcing blood on Russian hands. The retribution should be orders of magnitude beyond whatever is sent Russia’s way.
It’s a fine article Orlov, if only because it shows that you can think outside of the box, as they say. And I say the box is the master’s mind, and as I repeat to all those who have the patience of listening (or reading): in our times marked by a new chapter of colonial imperialism aka Anglobalisation the master’s mind is the Anglo mind.
по-братски Орлов, dale duro, camarada, Roberto
Super smart tought excersise, hopefully it goes this way or something close to it. The key in this new 4th world war has always be “the one who gets in the mud (direct kinetic war) loses”
Thank you Dmitri Orlov. Your writing is always interesting and filled with valuable information. Can recommend your books. Proud owner of a couple.
A few links to confirm the strong ties between the Canadian Government and Ukraine, as well as it’s Nazi roots. The current Deputy Prime Minister of Canada, Chrystia Freeland is the grand daughter of WWII Nazi collaborator Mikhailo Chomiak. A Consulate of Ukraine opened up in Edmonton, AB just 2 1/2 years ago.
Chrystia Freeland and Canadian nazi collaborators;
https://yasha.substack.com/p/chrystia-freeland-and-canadian-nazi
“The Canadian government, with British complicity, admitted more than 2,000 members of a notorious Ukrainian Waffen-SS division in 1950, the Simon Wiesenthal Center has charged.
“In a related case, the CBS news program “60 Minutes” reported that about 1,000 SS men and Nazi collaborators, mainly from the Baltic states, moved to Canada about the same time.
“And the German public broadcasting network reported that 50,000 war criminals receive “victim pensions” from the German government. German sources say 1,882 are Canadian residents.
“Almost all the suspected war criminals and collaborators have lived openly under their own names in Canada for 47 years.”
Consulate of Ukraine opens in Edmonton AB, Sept. 2018;
https://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/consulate-of-ukraine-opens-in-edmonton/
London’s Five Eyes and Freeland’s Nazi roots stand exposed once more;
https://canadianpatriot.org/2020/01/30/https-www-strategic-culture-org-news-2020-01-29-consortium-news-strikes-back-londons-five-eyes-freelands-nazi-roots-stand-exposed-once-more/
Chrystia Freeland’s family record of nazi war profiteering;
http://johnhelmer.net/victim-or-aggressor-chrystia-freelands-family-record-for-nazi-war-profiteering-and-murder-of-the-cracow-jews/
Canada rolls out the red carpet for Petro Poroshenko, who gets standing ovation by the Canadian Government;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9W07d4pCQ0
” found a welcoming home in the US and in Canada, where they were able to feather their nests and bring up the next several generations of Ukrainian Nazis.”
…including Canada’s former foreign minister and current deputy PM, Chrystia Freeland.
Fantastic analysis Mr. Orlov. No one else has thought of your evacuation idea which would force other countries to ask: why do Russians need to be evacuated in the first place? (Because of Ukrainian bombings and artillery, naturally.)
I wonder if Russia will ever create a “right of return” similar to Israel, where you can swap your Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian, etc. passport for a Russian passport. That would effectively depopulate all the countries which oppress their ethnic Russian minority.
Cheers!
The problem is that if the population of Donetsk & Lugansk are evacuated, it is not a high likelihood that they will ever return, & these will be two historical Russian oblasts & cities that were effectively surrendered (see Serbian Krajina). This would be a historic defeat. Plus the fact that, any punishment the collective powers of the West have in mind for Russia in the event of all out war, these punishments will come sooner or later anyway, because the objective of the combined West is not control of Donbass but the total destruction of Russia. Then there are the defence forces of Donetsk & Lugansk, the LDNR armies – I follow the commentaries of Dejan Beric, from Serbia, who fought in LDNR & remains a reserve officer. His assessments are realistic, he doesn’t put a gloss on anything or engage in fake triumphalism – he recently reported in the LDNR in the event of war & reported that the local armed forces are in excellent shape & ready for whatever may come. As long as the Russian state provides support where necessary, the local forces should be able to defend the region successfully. And this time around, they won’t be held back, like in the past, but probably encouraged to go forward & liberate the more territory. Finally, there is Crimea – & I would say this is a major reason why an evacuation will not & can not be the option that the Kremlin pursues. The West & their Ukronazi proxies would see such an evacuation as a sign of weakness & defeat, they would not read it rationally the way Mr. Orlov has explained such an option, & they would with certainly turn on Crimea following an evacuation of the Donbass. I think the LDNR will be fought for, & victory will go to the right side. As for Kiev, defeat in Donbass almost certainly means what Putin suggested, an end to the Ukrainian state as such, the recriminations between factions would be such that a civil war in central & west Ukraine would be a distinct possibility.
You lost me at the part that starts by evacuation. Ultimately self owning nonsense. Where evacuate to? To another run down suburb of Moscow, St. Petersburg, Kazan… to make a ghetto? No jobs, no housing etc.? Are you well?
Oh oh Nachtigall…you’ve been drinking the CIA inspired cool-aid…
If there is one thing that WOULD be successful, it is rehousing of refugees within Russia. On this aspect, Mr Orlovs idea is sane and reasonable and doable.
I was involved in some research about building activity as a measure of the stimulus that an economic multiplier creates within economies. I will just say that the figures for new housing starts in the US and UK are amazingly low for these so-called developed economies…and when i read the Russian statistics, i was gobsmacked…their housing programme is vast. Not only does Russia have an amazing surplus of housing stock (remember the stats of 6 million reduced population due to the western interference in the Russian healthcare sector from 1990 to 2000?) but new housing construction brings over 1 million new homes onto the market each year.
The Saker mentioned 1 million Ukrainians have entered Russia since 2014….my own calculations put this figure closer to 4.5 million. All have been ‘absorbed’ – they all received housing and jobs and are now integrated….and they have also been given the option that if and when they decide they wish to return to the Ukraine, they are welcome to do so, but if they wish to stay in Russia, they are also welcome. Based on what i researched, the older Kruscheva housing units are gradually being pulled down where engineers have declared them unsafe and new housing estates and satellite-cities are springing up. i could not use the words ‘run-down.’ nor ‘ghetto’, to describe this altogether positive trend.
You’ve clearly never been to Russia. Do you have family there? Do speak the language? Are you at least familiar with the realities on the ground. New units and blocks are sprawling around the mega city of Moscow, then St. Petersburg and other big cities. The social situation is tense as it is. Just a couple of days ago Putin had a public TV discussion on the very bad situation as the Russian language is concerned, because migrant children are dragging the language proficiency of Russian children down. Too few schools, under-financed, disastrous “EGE” curriculum – these are news that make it regularly to national television and discussion rounds. It would be a completely different story if there was something like the CCP in Russia, that would act as the strategic subject/coordinator/decision maker and therefore would enact long term national programs. Putin personally had to make sure, that even a one time payment reached health care workers last year, which would have ended otherwise in a fiasco. Do you know what academics, economist, political scientists have to say about the conditions in modern Russia? You don’t know the half of it. Most foreigners and expats concentrate on public statistics, which are woefully inadequate to judge the situation inside the country. It’s as if you are living in virtual reality. To take governmental statistics seriously (where was it build/ high-rise or individual units/ infrastructure conditions/ cost/ materials used/… enormous amounts of parameters), without having the knowledge how they are gathered and produced, is plainly unprofessional.
1. Your stats are spread over years. This article is concerned with at a maximum of a 1-3 months time frame to begin the resettlement. Are you sure Ukronazis would just watch?
2. People buy these units for MONEY (most times on credit)! This can be done through the budget, but because of idiotic “neoliberal” budgeting this will be financed in the end through taxes or other extractive means.
3. You have to be socially integrated and have to have a job, to make a living in these expensive cities.
I have Russian colleagues working for my management consultancy. They live in cities across all time zones within Russia and the Ukraine. They not only collect statistics which i then cross-check but also report on the situation as and when a project requires some greater insights.into local conditions.
The social housing provided by the State as rental accommodation exists and is adequate and is still the majority of housing units in the total stock. The existing housing ‘stock’ involves a lot of empty housing blocks that have been and still are, an adequate resource for short term refugee settlement (i calculate that there are still some 3 million housing units empty currently). The old stock is being renewed and there have been stories about Russians resenting to have to move out of their older blocks and move into new estates. In addition there is a programme to build new housing which the Russian government takes very seriously as a major obligation and priority. This adds 1 million housing units to the stock per year, the majority being local administration run rentals.
The option to buy private property is a relatively new phenomenon and true enough, is costly but there are Russians that are happy to have access to this possibility. Some conflicts have developed where within a local government run block, some units have been sold to private owners and when the local government wanted to pull down the block and rehouse everyone, the private owners rebelled. But that exact situation also even occurs in London.
As for the word “run-down,” i prefer to use the word “adequate.” Armed with my own personal experience of scooting around in hire cars all over western Europe and visiting places that no tourist would ever bother to visit, i can assure you that my experience post-1990 in my own personal invasion of the ex-Soviet space in Eastern Europe, did not shock me at all. I saw the same type of “adequate” social housing blocks in Bad Vilbel, Hamburg, Recklinghausen, Brussels, Lille, and many other cities across Western Europe, that i then saw across Hungary, East Germany, the Czech and Slovak republics, the Ukraine and Poland…It is all “adequate” …. people complained all the time about the housing and that is a good thing, as it shows everyone, east and west, wants a better life… The one major advantage for everyone across western and eastern Europe, outside of the Donbass, is we can live without the daily threat of being killed.
As a concept, a full evacuation of the Donbass is an interesting thought. The next stage after an evacuation is what is most intriguing. Go in and clean up amongst the remaining population of the whole of the Ukraine? Turn the empty space into a free-fire zone so that it remains a no-man land and barrier against invasion, forever? Always remembering that the Donbass is geographically, the buffer zone protecting Rostov on Don. Is it now time to push back completely? How does one teach messianic, fundamentalist predators a lesson so that they will learn to back-off, forever? We debate the Russian mindset but it is the mindset prevailing in Washington DC and London (and their psychopathic allies in the EU) which is the root cause of the actual crisis. How much of their threats are just empty words?
Whatever the Donbass residents get by moving to just about anywhere in Russia, it would be an upgrade. Better jobs, bigger pensions, better living conditions, etc. The biggest problem with Donbass after all the shelling from the Ukrainian side is POVERTY. Russia is rich, the Ukraine is dirt-poor. Anybody with half a brain and an invitation from Putin would move immediately.
D. Orlov presents a very important historical read that educates all to the facts of the situation of Ukraine’s existence and present dilemma.
His proposal to evacuate the Donbass lacks one fact: 40% of the population in Donetsk vicinity is pro-Ukrainian. So, there must be several other cities and towns and villages with pro-Ukie folks who would be the political leverage against this proposal ever working out as Mr. Orlov suggests. It won’t be an empty zone.
Also, with the 4.5 million comes the heavy need to support their health, pensions, housing and education. Who pays for that?
Yes, you get hard workers but you get lots of folks who just need social services and basics of life.
They leave behind all productive assets.
They leave behind all the earth fought for over the centuries, soaked in precious Russian blood.
I don’t see how the people leave unless you offer them dachas in Sochi and move a few divisions of “robots” to guarantee the return to grave sites of their heroes and families.
It’s Judo alright.
But Putin has a different technology on the dojo mat. His game is bigger than Ukraine. He wants to “throw” NATO on its back and count it out. Ukraine and the Black Sea is where that will happen. I think it is going to happen.
Using the content of the video as a better indicator of what is to come, we can project that no ground forces will take Donbass from Russia, and Ukraine will fracture soon enough.
The great leverage of Donbass comes from the people being there, not leaving.
Using this notion, Russian troops should abandon Transnistria, too, taking those Moldovans with them.
Putin is making it very clear his program for the ex-Soviet Space is to bring it back, boundaries and people. There is a need for Russia to keep the huge and wide Soviet sphere for cultural and economic reasons. Thus, the EAEU.
Very intriguing presentation from Dmitri. We thank him for publishing on the Vineyard.
All of us have to deal with bozos in the comment threads. Please know, D.O. that you are held in very high regard by the vast majority of commenters and the silent thousands who read the articles but don’t comment.
We read you and are edified. A very thought-provoking piece. Thanks again.
I learned a lot. I assume that those that are saber rattling knew all of this before.
Surely, all those educated leaders that we have will do the right things.
Defend your 40% pro-Ukrainian Donbass number or GTFO for spreading disinfo.
I have read that from various pro-Donbass analysts for several years, that Donetsk city has 40% of the citizens who are pro-Ukraine. That thousands came back to work in the city when the general combat ended. And I can’t quote the sources at the moment but will fetch what I can shortly.
Certainly, there are substantial numbers who serve the SBU and their assassinations and sabotage over the years.
Are you suggesting that the total population is nearly all pro-Russia?
If so, there has never been a rush or stampede or long lines to get Russian Passports. The number after two years is but 600,000.
Results from a Ukrainian source:
“Only 18 percent of the respondents agree to return to Ukraine, and 60 percent want to see the republics within Russia. 85 percent consider Ukraine and the United States to be initiators of the war, and only 10 percent agree with the statement that Russia has “occupied” Crimea.”
https://rg.ru/2019/11/10/60-procentov-zhitelej-respublik-donbassa-hotiat-vossoedinitsia-s-rossiej.html
This is nowhere near the 40% number you gave. You need to be more careful about spreading disinfo.
L445 your comments are almost always spot on
But please stop this Halluzination of 40 % in Donbas
because that’s totally BS
In particular situation of mass evacuation, percent of those who are not willing to abandon their homes is only division line that matters.
And that is the only deciding fact what we, sadly, do not know for sure.
This is war of attrition. West is using every opportunity to impose full spectrum economic burden on Russia. The main goal is to induce division among population due impoverisment of masses. Bringing large number of refugees will additionaly create divisions due cultular and language barriers. Refugees will be sentenced to decade or two of harsh life in new enviroment. Constantly searching for any job available, lowering wages of locals and deepening divisions even further.
The cost for state of supporting such number of people with $100/month is close to building another NS2 or Kersch bridge. Yearly.
Do not blame me for looking at this inhumane situation through money. West does.
“Know thy enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.”
I am deeply saddened because of suffering that people from Donbas endure. Everybody must help them in every way, but deccision to leave homeland is their deccision exclusively.
And those who decide to hold their ground we must help even more. That is only fair.
If West has its way and successfully forment regime change in Moscow, or merely enough support, there will be vastly more migrations than in Donbass case.
Only then they will atack, not before.
D.O.
“As of the 2001 census—the only survey in post-Soviet Ukraine—more than half of Donetsk province’s inhabitants saw themselves as Ukrainian, but nearly 40 percent saw themselves as Russian, compared with 17.3 percent across the country. When given the option of a regional identity —as the journalist Tim Judah notes in his book In Wartime — 41 percent here opted for Ukrainian, 11 percent for Soviet and 48 for a local reference such as Donbass.”
Source: https://www.newsweek.com/2017/04/21/ukraine-only-hope-east-may-building-homes-and-schools-582509.html
And this:
“And if we take into account that 42.9% of respondents have never thought about obtaining a Russian passport, then these forty percent are the potential reserve with which Ukraine can work. But whether we have the intellectual and psychological resources for such work is another matter.”
Extracted from a poll taken in Nov. 2019: https://zn.ua/ukr/internal/test-na-sumisnist-329032_.html
Over and over the statistical results point to at the worst 35% of the respondents favor Ukraine, though very clearly blaming Ukraine for their bad economics and the war.
Their most trusted person in one section of the poll is Putin, so there are many indicators that this poll is fair and accurate.
So, from the Tim Judah book and the poll, I stand on the near 40% mark.
What I wrote is not disinfo of any sort.
What percentage of the vote did Yanukovich get in the Crimea, and what in the Donbass? That might be a reasonable idea of how pro-Ukrainian the two areas were at that time. Or, if that election is insufficient, past Presidential elections.
Also, what does pro-Ukraine mean? Is Mark Sleboda pro-Ukraine? Most Russian media and politicians would have said they were pro-Ukraine ten years ago. Even Putin was pro-Ukraine in the past, and would probably say he still is. Confederate army guys may have said they were pro-America, they just thought Lincoln and the Republicans had gone astray and that the Confederate Constitution was even more American than the original one.
The stats I saw gave Yanukovych a higher percentage in Donbass and Lugansk than in Crimea.It was in the 90’s % vs the 80’s%.
Here is a map from Yanukovych’s first election.I believe at one time I saw another one similar from his second election too:
http://suffragio.org/2013/12/05/why-more-protests-wont-solve-ukraines-political-crisis-and-why-the-orange-revolution-didnt-either/ukraine2004/
Polls are something I dont believe in (at all), and if I get it right the first survey is from 2001 and the zn.ua is not famous for beeing pro-russian
Polls can and will always be manipulated and they are manipulated most of the time, there are many ways of manipulating.
But as I said 99 % of your comments are spot on, just here the “Donbass 40 %” I dont believe in but we will see the outcome in the next years
From 2001 is totally out of date, and quoting from the enemy of Russia, the sick yank BSer newsweek, weakens your argument further. Polls are also BS, especially in the West, & in ukraine.
So it’s not ‘disinfo’, but about as bad.
Above all, if you still think that 40% of the Donbass people still support ukraine while being attacked by it, then…
Why don’t you just admit that you have no reliable info to support your figure?
Larchmonter445 says:
“Putin is making it very clear his program for the ex-Soviet Space is to bring it back, boundaries and people.”
Sure, I could see the Kremlin leaving the western 40% of the Ukraine to the Ukro-Nazis, and drawing and establishing a security border roughly from just west of Kiev all the way down to Transniestria and occupying the east and south of the Ukraine, where the great bulk of the ethnic Russian-speaking population resides. Thus Russia would secure the northern shore of the Black Sea, all of the shores of the Sea of Azov, as well as both banks of the Dnieper, and reincorporate historically Russian lands and population into the Russian federation. To fail to do that leaves strategic territory to NATO, which has proved it will not keep coming — unless it is stopped by Russian resolve.
Then, taking a creative page from D. Orlov’s evacuation playbook, Russia could offer all Ukrainians who would like to evacuate the Russian-controlled zone, free, voluntary, peaceful passage to the western zone. All those who elect to remain would fall under Russian rule.
Personally, it would not surprise me to see the Russian military move hard and strong against the Ukraine in the coming weeks. There may well be a voluntary, civilian evacuation of population from what is at present “Ukrainian” territory, though perhaps along the lines of what I sketch out.
But war seems more likely than not at this juncture, given the massive build-up of troops and heavy weapons on both sides.
We’ll see! We are entering uncharted waters.
Thank you, Larchmoner445, but see my post above. The offer of evacuation ought to extend to these ‘pro-Ukranian’ folk (if they are still there, even the ‘pro-Russians’ have to be considered also pro-Ukrainian — can you imagine what it has felt like to be in the middle of these two armies?? And yet the grandfather was feeding his chickens! I would be cowering under the bed!!)
@juliania
That grandpa surely knew what he is risking. I have strong feeling that he had someone significant under the bed who likes eggs for breakfast. Respect.
As for this poor kid that was droned I am speechless.
Feel only rage.
I would like that we, on this forum, allocate part of collective analytic skills to pinpoint psychopath that droned child, his comanding officier(s), even seller that delivered drone. Lets chase monsters out of the shadow.
Insignificant from grand scheme point of view? I don’t think so.
Thanks Larch for opposing ideas of pan Orlovszsky. Only one or two sentences for you. I’ve heard so many times very stupid quote that Russia has enough land and it doesn’t need more. I guess you understand how stupid and dangerous that logic is, every m2 is crucial, if it’s not yours than it’s enemy’s. We, Serbians, know that very well!
First off.
The Kiev military isn’t as bad as the author says. They ain’t great. But they have lots of weapons and some leadership.
2nd… The people of the Donbas ain’t leaving, except in a body bag. That is their home and the ethnic Russians have lived there for a thousand years. Hitler and Stalin (the holodomor) couldn’t kill them all off or run them off. That ground is soaked with the blood of a thousand years of defending their land. They ain’t going no where.
3rd..Who blinks first….Russia can’t go any further back. And if its war with nato and the Amerika, that leaves Taiwan wide open for China…..
Stupid Biden. Stupid nato. And stupid Trump for taking the side of Kiev…..
This article is dressed up as a judo move although that would put into ridicule the Russian Federation-it is a call for surrender for fear of offending Western elites-as for fighting in Ukraine if you are fearful of fighting there or of sanctions you are not a player -it would be a great victory for Biden & the worst elements in Europe-
Dear Mr. Orlov,
I want to comment as well to thank you for the wonderful article and denounce these internet trolls that attacked you!
I have followed your writings for some time along with The Saker’s writings. Honestly, both of you are like fresh water in the arid desert of The West.
Us Westerners are so heavily propagandized that truth hurts us!
Regarding this specific article I thoroughly enjoyed your history of the Ukraine! This historical context is so important for those of us in America as we are completely clueless about the Ukraine’s history!
Thanks for this!
Dear Dmitry, at this moment 5246 Views and a few a-holes that should not have happened. If our defenses at The Saker Blog fail, they fail spectacularly lol – it happens. I spent half my morning with my head stuck under my arm in true shame! But, many many love your work and say so!
On behalf of The Saker Site, I thank you for allowing us this cross post.
This is absolutely beside the point that I’m not fully in agreement with your proposed solution. That is the stuff of debate. But, with how we started, I’m afraid my debate balloon deflated. Nevertheless, why should the Donbass residents leave? It is their home. I understand moving non-combatants from a war zone. But why leave this area to anyone else that is not entitled to it?
You are very welcome. I don’t necessarily ‘agree’ with evacuation, but that’s not relevant. All I did was point out the logic of it based on fact.
Your objection is reasonable, but it misses the point of what it means to be Russian.
It’s interesting to me from the perspective of an ethnicity perspective too.
I am Cymraeg {Eng “Welsh”}.; I thought, reading your suggestion, a sort of ‘”of course, what else”, and as I have said, reflected that, had I had a babe or two, I would not have needed a directive to “pack up and go” for I would have been gone on my own iniative long before.
But that is something we Welsh do, and always have. I was reading recently translations from the history of my people and how they coped with the frequent incursions of the marauding Danish/Irish Gaels of Ireland in he 1200’s.
In a matter of a couple of hours, the possessions, livestock, and family were gathered up and disappeared into the high barren mountain tops, to wait it out until the marauders had gone, to return to put house into order and continue to live.
Rather like the Russians when facing an invasion, I think – but then we do seem to have a lot in common.
So you see, for us, to get an order to “pack up and go” is nothing. We do it all the time – it might come down to an innate something depending on the ethnicity.
Certainly, much as we love our valleys and hills, if we have to go, we can go quickly. We know we will come back one day.
I think true Russians must be the same.
Many people have already left Donbass for Russia and those who stay are doing so out of their own free will. It’s their home, their land, the place where they’ve got their jobs and businesses, and they’d probably rather fight than be evacuated.
I’ve mentioned this before, but why not rehash: Russia has had four years to prepare for the coming confrontation, as the US Republicans chose not to press the conflict with Russia. In this time, I’m sure that Russian security and intelligence services have been doing A LOT of infiltrating into the state and military apparatus of Ukraine. Should the conflict get very hot, suddenly and mysteriously, cooler Ukrainian heads may be the only ones still connected with their shoulders. Then, a major military clash may be a non-starter, and nothing much will continue to happen.
As usual Mr.Orlov’s article makes interesting and informative reading. Nevertheless, I am perplexed by his solution to the problem. All agree that Russia doing nothing while the Novorussians are attacked would be seen as weakness. Then how can Russia evacuating the Donbass under the threat of attack be seen as anything but weakness? I can just imagine PCR’s reaction if Russia backed down in this fashion. I’d see it as the worst diplomatic catastrophe imaginable.
I do not think the solution needs to be so clever. No 5D chess from Putin necessary. Russia is facing an unprovoked threat on its doorstep. Russian citizens lives are also at risk. Russia – we are continually told – has the most advanced military in the world. What good is such a military if the political leadership will never use it? Seriously, the longer this drags out the weaker Russia looks. A preemptive strike should have taken place weeks ago. At this stage, anything less is plain and simple weakness. The worst possible encouragement one can give the lunatics running the West.
There’s nothing uglier than a war between brothers. And nothing more dangerous – for the brothers. I hope Russia has been doing its best in the soft power arena. The long term solution, I think, is to somehow address the fundamental reason why anti-Russian sentiment has managed to gain a foothold in the area of Ukraine over the past century or so. Russia should not have to worry about Ukraine. The US should be made to worry about Mexico!
Or, as most Russians would put it, “a war between non-brothers”. The term non-brothers (небрáтья) is pretty popular in Russia these days. They are sick and tired of faux-internationalism where it is the Russians who have to work, sacrifice, suffer and die for a bunch of semi-foreign ingrates.
If the people of Donbass want to die for their little patch of land, that’s their choice. And if some Russians want to help them, on a strictly volunteer basis, then that’s fine too. But if they don’t understand that an order to retreat is an actual order, or aren’t willing to accept an order from Russian command, then they aren’t Russian enough to have Russians defending them, and possibly dying, as a matter of duty.
“The Donbass evacuation should resonate rather well internationally. It would be a typical Putin judo move knocking NATO and the US State Department off-balance. Since this would be a large humanitarian mission, it would be ridiculous to attempt to portray it as “Russian aggression.” ”
This may be true, but it is also entirely moot.
Since when has any claim by the West of “Russian aggression” been founded in reality?
And yet that never stopped the promotion of those claims nor the inevitable sanctions which followed.
Although the author’s proposed evacuation of Donbass is pure conjecture at this point, if this were to actually transpire, then expect to see breathless Western media reports of “Russian death camps” and “chemical weapon attacks” etc etc etc.
Dmitri a very interesting and reasonable proposal. Russia can offer residency or call it asylum for any people who want to evacuate the Donbass. This is like World War II when Russia evacuated civilians from the front line but of course kept the military there to fight. In reality I think anyone who has wanted to leave has already left for Russia and the remaining civilians will stay there along with the Donbass fighters. It’s not realistic to expect a land empty of civilians and only fighters there.
So in the end I don’t think your proposal will fly because people will just not leave their homeland. And frankly, what I’ve been reading, except for some pot shots the Ukronazis make on civilians (like murdering a little boy), life is not unbearable there. People work and children go to school. This is the way the people of the Donbass show their resistance and basically show the middle finger to the Kiev regime.
In the end there won’t be a massacre in the Donbass because simply Russia won’t allow it no matter the ramifications. In the final analysis Russia will come in and protect it like they did in South Ossettia. The only question is how far Russia will go and how far the DLNR forces will expand Novorussia.
And when the ukro (ie their masters) also ask for the return of the Crimea, what would “the skilful putin” do? Would he evacuate that too?
Stop posting this kind of infantile bullshit!
Go read a book!
By the way, what you wrote is a good example of a strawman argument. This is enough to ban you (see the moderation rules)
Brilliant, thought provoking. Can`t see any hole in the argument.
Thanks for this, Dmitry!
As most here are aware my interest is mostly satire. This usually involves taking a statement, idea or ideology and amplifying it to discover at which point it becomes logically unusable, self-defeating or even humorous. Examining Dimitry’s proposition I can discover no such a position and certainly not a place where humour becomes apparent. This usually happens when logic and common sense are base elements.
When they are not we get such concepts as ‘Make America Great Again’ or there are ‘over ’50 different sexes’ and many others that just cry out for satirical analysis. This is not to say the ideas should not be openly discussed and good arguments ‘entertained’.
The point to always bear in mind is that those folk who think out of the box have been those who advanced the human condition more than the orthodox.
I found humor in lumping Finland into a group with Estonia, Latvua and Lithuania.
Even the Vikings didn’t want my ancestors, and one would be hard-pressed to find a more genetically distinct group at this time.
Excluding the new musta Finns, of course.
I think you might be onto something.
Very interesting solution. And human centered. But US can ultimately walk over principles and bring Ukraine in Nato without forcing them to recognize that Crimea belongs to Russia.
And Russia will miss opportunities to hold a sword above Ukraine if Russian speakers are removed.
My deepest respect and gratitude go to both Dmitry and The Saker. Please don’t allow any fools bully you into silence!
Best regards from NATO-occupied Sweden
Loved the quick potted history of which I had no idea.
Not sure about the depopulation idea at all but I do think that large hospitals, high schools and aged care facilities should be put on the Russian side of the border where some of the vulnerable could be relocated. Not sure about younger children who still need to be close with families. Perhaps they too could be relocated along with their carers (mums mostly) but close enough for regular visits from the rest of their family. Rapis transport and border crossing would be needed.
Working adults should stay to protect their homes etc. Obviously anyone who has roots in other parts of Russia may well choose to relocate but those with history in the Donesk would not wish to move.
Looking at the map it seems pretty clear that most of the blue shaded regions belong in Russia. My own feeling is that starting province at a time with borders to Russia (or even smaller districts), there should be a referendum.
I’m in two minds on this question. It would be v good to evacuate the children, the elders, the infirm and other non combatants as they are natural targets for the Orcs ( Ukros). Thereby, the civil administration will be relieved of the task of dealing with bombed schools, hospitals, markets etc; (think Yemen, Syria, and elsewhere). — Question. Would this leave a combat force, sufficient in numbers, and well organised, to deal effectively with the enemy? I am not ‘on the ground’ and I am not a soldier or tactician, just a paysan. Under similar circumstances I would choose to stand and fight. At the same time I would be thankful that my children and their children would be far from the heat of battle. My prayers go with the peoples of Donbass.
I wrote:
The Donbass would remain as a stalker zone roamed by Russian battlefield robots sniping Ukrainian marauders, with the odd busload of schoolchildren there on a field trip to lay flowers on the graves of their ancestors.
Let me unfold this for you:
• Evacuation would not affect the standing of evacuated Donbass residents vis-à-vis the Minsk agreements. However, it would free Russia’s hands in enforcing these agreements, including punishing any Ukrainian incursions into the zone covered by the agreements.
• Ukrainian, NATO or any other forces would not be allowed in; whenever detected, they would be blasted to bits by Russian drones and artillery.
• Ukrainian or NATO forces would not be able to respond by shelling Russian territory because the promised response would be a rocket attack on Kiev or Brussels.
• The Donbass had to be rebuilt from scratch after WWII. It’s about time for it to rebuild it from scratch again, so damage to buildings doesn’t matter.
“Evacuation would not affect the standing of evacuated Donbass residents vis-à-vis the Minsk agreements.”
what happens in kiev changes the laws and bans dual citizenship:
anyone who accepted russian passports isnt ukrainian citizen anymore and
therefore not part of the minsk agreement?
‘The Donbass had to be rebuilt from scratch after WWII. It’s about time for it to rebuild it from scratch again, so damage to buildings doesn’t matter.’ No.
Easy to say, but who is going to pay for it? Do you even know how much that would cost?
The problem is that you are trying to make everything fit into your argument, without regard to the affected people.
It would have been a good idea if you had at least asked the Donbass people what THEY think, first.
You really nailed it, man, saved everybody and full caps what a move!
This is absolutely the best possible scenario I heard, and, yes, someone could say it’s fiction.
But who cares!? This has a momentum that bends the reality towards fulfillment. Haters gonna hate.
Some people some centuries ago thought really that the steamengine could not do it on rails. Look, where are they now?
I dig this solution, it is just and real.
The more real, the merrier, actually.
Also great fill is the map! At last! Man, since 5 years I read this blog, so let’s say, the maidan days news munchies brought me here. So I read and read the excellent graphista and, I know Russia only from books and 80’s 7 o’clock newsflash style. I had to look up the possible lines by the village names, and this map i wished to see so long ago, to see, to get the picture better.
So my prayers go to your planning, and full steam ahead!
Thank-you, Saker, for posting this (apparently, provocative) article by Dmitry Orlov. And, thank-you, Mr. Orlov, for agreeing to have it published on this platform.
For me, it matters little whether or not such a mass evacuation of the non-combatant population of the hold-out Republics is feasible, or even desirable. That can be debated. The simple fact that a solution has been imagined which does not involve a lot of hell and fireworks is, to my mind, a step in the right direction. This, alone, makes it a valuable contribution to the discussion, and to the evolution of our species.
Thank-you. Thank-you. Thank-you.
I’ll preface my comment by saying that I’ve read all the comments up to the point of submitting my own. Considering Mr. Orlov’s and others’ criticisms of previous comments and their writers, I’m once again very hesitant to submit my own.
(What follows will surely prove that “fools rush in where angels fear to tread”.)
First, I think Mr. Orlov’s article should be required reading for all Westerners. I learned a lot from it.
With regard to evacuation, which I believe is Mr. Orlov’s main purpose in writing his fine article, there is a relevant, amazingly recent – April 8, 2021 – article from the Tass – online english edition – entitled:
”Kremlin says Russia lacks sufficient number of migrants to fulfill its ambitious plans
The Kremlin spokesman noted that the number of migrants in Russia has reduced significantly”
https://tass.com/politics/1275561
Capitalism in Russia (just like in the US and China, and anywhere else capitalism is being employed) requires perpetual growth, especially population growth, in order to provide private profit for private investments and private corporations. Therefore, an evacuation (a migration) of millions of people, skilled or unskilled, would be a very neat way to kill two birds with one stone.
Because I am often quite skeptical of what is written in any state-sanctioned publications, I also believe that that Tass article may actually have been published in order to prepare average Russians for a mass migration/immigration from “Ukraine” (and not necessarily only from the eastern regions, IMO; anyone anywhere in “Ukraine” who can read the writing on the wall may also decide to jump the sinking ship and move to Russia), so Mr. Orlov’s proposal may be being seriously considered by Russian VIPs.
If Russia were seriously considering evacuating eastern “Ukraine”, I would think that Russia would have done that shortly after the Maidan coup. But Russia chose instead to take the diplomatic, Minsk/Normandy route to try to enable the likely BEST POSSIBLE outcome of the situation at that time – all parties just might end up being relatively happy. Did Russia know that “Ukraine” would not abide by the terms of its agreements? Russia should have at the very least strongly suspected that “Ukraine”, and by “Ukraine” I mean the US and its other vassals that signed the agreement, would not. The ensuing military build-up by “the West” should IMO have reinforced that suspicion to the point of certainty long ago. Nowadays there is no question that “the West” and its drone-nation “Ukraine”, and its drone-nation’s automaton Zelensky have plans up their sleeves and those plans don’t include making nice with Mother Russia.
Lately there is some talk of a meeting between Mr. Putin and Mr. Potato Head (“MPH” = US Deep State and the Western Oligarchic Transnational Elite Collective). I believe that such a meeting would/will not take place unless some kind of “peace”-agreement has already been completely ironed out in secret between Russia and the IMO agreement-incapable WOTEC. If a meeting actually occurs, it will be because both sides have agreed to it, of course. Russia agreeing to such a meeting would indicate to me that Russia does not truly believe the harsh reality that the WOTEC is in fact agreement-incapable. After all, if Russia truly believed that, why would it participate in such a meeting – just wishing upon a star that a Great White Shark can somehow be cajoled into playing the violin?
Mr. Orlov himself sees some possible down sides to evacuation.
”The negative optics of surrendering territory can be countered by not surrendering any territory. As a guarantor of the Minsk Agreements, Russia must refuse to surrender the Donbass to the Ukrainian government until it fulfills the terms of these agreements, which it has shown no intention of doing for seven years now and which it has recently repudiated altogether.”
(First, although I am very hesitant to point it out, if, as Mr. Orlov reported that Mr. Putin said a short time ago, “Russia does not need any more territory”, why not go right ahead and “surrender” some territory that is already NOT part of Russia? – territory that Russia “does not need”?)
“Negative optics” in front of whose eyes? – the Russian public, the Russian oligarchs, Russian politicians, WOTEC? The latter ALREADY have the most negative possible optics about Russia, so it must be some or all of the former. How does Russia make, let’s face it, a sow’s ear of a situation look like a silk purse to Russian eyes? Will average Russians care, after the wonderful, humanitarian mass-migration takes place, if a technical agreement between several proven-agreement-incapable parties is not carried out by those parties – especially if Russia’s enforcement of that agreement (as guarantor) by more-than-just-possible military strikes puts Mother Russia herself at risk of attack by WOTEC using the variety of means that WOTEC has already used a thousand times before?
Even IF the evacuation can be engineered, undertaken and successfully completed without the loss of a single human life, I don’t agree with Mr. Orlov that the terms of Minsk should or can thereafter be enforced by Russia through the use of military force from a distance, as if those forces/strikes were the equivalent of, say, the Russian military occupying what the evacuees have just evacuated. (And Mr. Orlov had said just a few sentences prior that “Third, he [Putin] said that resolving the conflict in eastern Ukraine through military means is unacceptable.” Mr. Orlov must be saying that Mr. Putin should change his mind, which I happen to agree with, only with the addition of several other changes, too.)
If Russia and MPH could sign a piece of paper on which both agreed that if “Ukraine” could take complete control over the eastern regions of “Ukraine”, right up to the Russian border, AFTER the evacuation, that WOTEC would recognize Crimea as Russian territory and not attempt to further militarize “Ukraine” or bring “Ukraine” into NATO, that MIGHT be the best possible deal at this moment in time for both parties. But this is assuming, again, that WOTEC is agreement-capable, which I believe it is NOT. As it did the JCPOA, WOTEC would break any new deal as soon as it felt that by so doing it would gain some advantage or some new territory.
Again, Mr. Orlov you have written a fantastic ariticle. I learned a lot about Ukraine by reading it.
In closing, the “nice” thing about this period of history in The Real Life Series is that we politically-impotent readers/commenters won’t have to wait very long for the next, and maybe even the Final!, episode – or in movie-speak, “The End”. Will it be (as we teenagers used to say in the ’60s while the US was murdering literally millions of innocent people in SE Asia) “a blast”, or will it be a Big Yawn of World Peace – with its necessarily-simple ensuing way of life? (I ask again — can a Great White Shark somehow be cajoled into playing Paganini on the violin? If it can’t, I’m leaning toward the former.)
To Ishkabibble
It has been couple of times so far that you and I got into some “discussion”. First time when you posted a comment under my last essay – “The Great Reset”, stating that my hope for the Americans wanting something better than what they got, was misplaced and unrealistic, as most Americans will always vote for the known warmongers since their paychecks depended on that. You said that they are willing to risk a nuclear war than to lose their employment. My answer to that was: – if that is true, this shows a total disconnect to the reality – to which you replied that they are as connected to reality as the Germans in the 1930s, in the pre-war Nazi Germany. Well, my response to that was that I didn’t believe that was applicable to most Americans. Sorry.
Then we had another “discussion”, most recently, after I posted a comment under Saker’s last “Open Thread”. In both those instances the way you came across was as someone knowledgeable, to some degree, but with gaps in that knowledge. But that wasn’t a problem, the actual problem was the tone. Rather snarky, sarcastic and high-handed. Now, if that is your personality, then you must be living alone – not many self-respecting human beings would put up with that. But here you are making a truly serious mistake – adopting such approach with Russians whereby you get immediately slapped down. You can display such attitude to your fellow Americans who are mostly ignorant and brainwashed (but obviously do not want to die in the nuclear devastation), but you absolutely cannot display that tone with the Russians! I see that you have tried that same snarky tone with Dmitry Orlov as well, the man whose intellect and analitical abilities are off the chart! Do you assume that your intellectual abilities are much higher than his? I am actually surprised that at your age (I believe you are around 70), you still have not learn that humility and willingness to admit that you might be wrong in some perceptions and on some issues is a great attribute to being a well rounded and intelligent human being. We learn all our lives and the only time we stop learning is when we are dead. Please think about that. Thank you.
Katerina, please respect the Saker’s site and the moderation policy. Your whole response is just a personal attack on another commenter – whether you agree with them or not – you are breaking rule #2 – “All comment have to be courteous to me, the blog’s author, moderators, any guest author and all the other commentators. You are welcome to criticize and even attack ideas, but not people. You are also not allowed to try something like “you are only saying this because…”. You are not God, so you don’t know why a person writes something”. Mod.
(reply to Ishkabibble. Mod.)
Thanks for the compliments. This comment is rather confused and contains a large number of hypothetical statements that I don’t even want to address. Suffice it to say that strategic retreat leaving together a scorched field upon which the enemy’s invading forces are destroyed is classic Russian strategy that invariably ends in victory.
The idea of evacuation is solid. It takes care of several competing problems at once. It saves the Donbass population from literally taking a shellacking, denies the Ukies (really the Empire) victory in any way, shape or form, sends a peaceful FU to the Europeans, allows Russia to not lose face and allows the rest of us to rest easy as WW3 has been averted . . . for now . Probably about as tidy an outcome as can be expected. Knowing the Empire, however, having been thwarted in eastern Europe it will then try to start a bonfire in Asia. So, the Chinese will have to also come up with something to keep the global brat inside its playpen.
Nobody would be too critic of this evacuation suggestion were it to be offered as an hot conflagration would be developing. No one would expect less from Russia as it would definitively handle the orc’s provocation while at the same time offering refuge to non-combatants. The question(s) then is(are) only:
– What value there is in anticipating that refuge offering? (Considerable)
– How certain is Russia of there being an actual hot conflict to anticipate? (Tractable)
– How timely should it be anticipated? (As much as there is presumed value to extract)
In case of hot war it is certain to happen, it is just hard to guess when and if in anticipation…
This is a very thought-provoking article. And well written (why is it that so many for whom English is a second language are much more artful in expressing that language than those for whom it is the mother tongue? Jimmie Moglia also comes to mind). Is it not the case, though, that those in the Donbas who want to leave can do so and probably already have done so? And is it not the case that those who have stayed put have done so because they believe that they have something to fight for: the land that has sustained them and that their eyes have come to love; and the people around them who share a way of life, common experience and idiosyncratic ways of speaking? Thank you to the author and host for expanding our imaginative horizons.
Impossible. Bunch of people would refuse to abandon their homes.
Not going to happen because it is absolutely unrealistic
It sounds impossible but it has been done a number of times in the recent history: India – Pakistan, Pakistan – Bangladesh, the Former Yugoslav republic of Croatia supported by NATO killed many and ethnically cleansed the reminder of its Serbs, Serbs also ethnically cleansed from parts of Bosnia and NATO criminal state of Kosovo. One sad common thing is that the catalyst for a relocation of many hundreds of thousands or millions is war and bloodshed but it can be and has been done before.
Russia should bring in the rest of the Russians that were left in the other NATZO states of the former USSR too. There are ample funds available in the Russian oligarchs’ coffers. Consolidate, strengthen the education system, keep modernising the armed forces and prepare for the final battle or wait out the imminent collapse of the other side (the US and NATO) which is definitely coming.
Dmitry Orlov is a top notch analyst. He does not promote the idea of relocating the populace of Donbass but it could be the only possible solution that will save majority of the people there and prevent the WWIII against the rival that has almost collapsed in every sphere. The US at this stage has an illegitimate President whose handlers cheated him into the office, the government is filled with crazies who are busy replacing the white population of that country with South Americans (which I am not against as that is their ancestral land anyway), the cancel culture is accelerating, the economy is non-existent if you take out the money printing industry…
The US parasite desperately wants war. Why give it to them? Keep alive the idea of one day returning there in a couple of generations, clean out your house by defanging fifth columnist in your country and wait it out.
Thank you for publishing at the Vineyard, Dmitry. Enjoyed reading — more than once, I have to say — your comprehensive essay on the Ukraine problem, and a very interesting move ie evacuation of the Donbass.
I’ve often wondered why RF didn’t just annex the LDNR republics seven years ago — even now the Kremlin keeps referring to the LDNR as being part of the Ukraine. RF’s policy of non-interference in post-Soviet republics, letting them go their own way, is well known, so I put it down to RF telling the world that pre-Maidan Ukraine sans Crimea is the real Ukraine. Post-Soviet republics are left to conduct their own affairs — with the major caveat that their going their own way doesn’t threaten the RF or Russians; something that’s understood by most rulers of the post-Soviet republics these past 30 years, Saakashvili the Tie Eater being the notable exception.
As outlandish as it may seem, from the point of view of ‘possible moves’ or options in this contest, evacuation ought to be considered and explored as Dmitry has done, and I laud him for it. Agreeing to its implementation is quite a different matter as he says so himself. Indeed, for several reasons, it can be asked if it is desirable from the RF point of view and that of the people of Donbass. Then again, Russia has practiced scorched earth policies in its recent history, including possibly burning down Moscow during the Napoleonic war. Russia burning down Moscow is still contested by historians but the point is that the possibility remains since it hasn’t been unequivocally disproven, and it points yet again to the possibilty of Russia’s acting in very unexpected ways.
Utter nonsense. Most likely tongue-in-cheek, since evacuating the Donbas is almost the exact opposite of not surrendering territory, — That’s a good one, Mr. Orlov. Almost had me believing you.
Instead of evacuating millions of people from Lugansk and Dontetsk, I suggest the Russian Army march in, free the suffering Ukrainian people from their corrupt failed state, and evacuate the Nazi-leaning people of Galicia to Madagascar.
Thanks Dimitry for illuminating thoughts . We need some light in the mostly obscure
time we are in.
Finally no more Brotherhood, Russia paid (historically) heavy price for this illusion.
It is time for everyone, specially people “between “ West and East to find out who you are ,
personally and ethnically and who is your enemy . The rest will follow.
Acompanho o Dmitry Orlov a anos!
Estou no Brasil e, na época do “acesso discado” da internet, por volta de 2007/08, havia o blog do Pedro Doria (Weblog).
Num dos comentários, surgiu a dica do “Orlov”…
Depois disso, vários outros (alguns “sumiram” – ou morreram, sei lá – como o “http://www.washingtonsblog.com/).
Bons tempos…
O importante é que, surgiram muitos outros com os mesmos ideais de desmascarar aquilo que a maioria das pessoas comuns pressentia.
Quando havia “e-mail”, já conversei com o Saker e também com o Michael Snyder (creio que ambos me acharam muito burro) mas, tudo bem, as traduções do português do Brasil na época não eram tão decentes) KKKK….
Voltando ao Dmitry Orlov, eu prefiro os textos dele depois que voltou para a Rússia, aquele barco ingrato que ele tentava construir nos EUA era, como se diz no Brasil, “uma furada”… KKK
Outra coisa, o veículo que Dmitry Orlov está usando na nova morada, “sui generis”, gostei muito!
Pessoal, se me desculpem esse praticamente, um desabafo!
Atenciosamente.
Tradução do Google:
I’ve been following Dmitry Orlov for years!
I am in Brazil and, at the time of “dial-up access” to the internet, around 2007/08, there was Pedro Doria’s blog (Weblog).
In one of the comments, the “Orlov” tip came up …
After that, several others (some “disappeared” – or died, I don’t know – like “http://www.washingtonsblog.com/).
Good times…
The important thing is that, many others came up with the same ideals to unmask what most ordinary people envisioned.
When there was “e-mail”, I already talked to Saker and also Michael Snyder (I think they both thought I was very stupid), but, okay, the Brazilian Portuguese translations at the time were not so decent) KKKK … .
Returning to Dmitry Orlov, I prefer his texts after he returned to Russia, that ungrateful boat he was trying to build in the USA was, as they say in Brazil, “a bore” … KKK
Another thing, the vehicle that Dmitry Orlov is using at the new address, “sui generis”, I really liked it!
Guys, if you can excuse this practically, an outburst!
Graciously.
Excellent analysis Dimitry and so well written. I would like to see more.
The specifics would, like any other proposal, need ironing out but the basis is sound.
For example, I would ask of these: How will Russia persuade the valiant LDNR defenders to evacuate, and
How would Russia respond if the Ukies in turn ‘evacuated’ Ukranian civilians into the Donbass?
Best regards, TEP
Tep:
Não sou o Dmitry Orlov mas, digo a você : “quem tem cú, tem medo!”…
Minha avó austríaca, que passou pela Primeira Guerra Mundial (veio para o Brasil em 1.921), quando morreu por volta de 1.978, por dez anos tivemos que aguentar a velha fechando as janelas e portas dizendo: “os alemães estão chegando”…
Eu era criança/adolescente, via nos olhos da minha avó o pavor que ela passou com a Guerra!
Não se iluda, quando essa merda agarrar, as piores estatísticas do Apocalipse, Baba Vanga e Nostradamus serão amenas…
Infelizmente.
:-/
Google translation and edited by Mod:
I am not Dmitry Orlov but, I say to you: “whoever is in the a.. is afraid!”…
My Austrian grandmother, who went through the First World War (came to Brazil in 1921), when she died around 1978, for ten years we had to endure the old woman closing the windows and doors saying: “the Germans are coming”…
I was a child / teenager, I saw in my grandmother’s eyes the dread she had with the War!
Make no mistake, when that s..t grips, the worst statistics from the Apocalypse, Baba Vanga and Nostradamus will be mild…
Unfortunately.
: – /
A traduçao do quem tem cu tem medo ficou tosca…rs
Who has a ass knows what is Fear….
Abs
Excellent article. The author showcases both his historical knowledge of the region and the finer points of geopolitical judo. With original insight, he explains a left handed evacuation and a right handed fist. I found the article wholly original and entirely possible. Prayer and preparedness give birth to confidence.
Orlov’s evacuation plan comprehensively addresses an important aspect of the conflict that, while previously noticed, has not been recognised as a central and decisive element of the struggle. I speak of the moral inferiority of one and all Nato assets, certainly the Ukrainians and most particularly the Nazis. This has not escaped the attentions of critics, of course, but neither has it been adequately examined in terms of both its strategic and tactical significance. Both are pertinent. There’s a difference between a soldier, properly speaking, and a murderer. A soldier manfully shields the weak and helpless from the aggressions of the enemy with his own life. A murderer does just the opposite. Murderers use civilians as human shields to protect themselves. The Ukrainians, and certainly the Nazis, fight as do the terrorists of Idlib. Using civilians as human shields is their way. Killing civilians is Kiev’s policy. We should keep in mind that soon after the Maiden the Pravis openly avowed their aim of ethnic cleansing. So even the idiotic rhetoric of a ‘war on terror’ is completely off the mark. Murdering grandfathers and 5 year olds is no accident. That’s what they’re trying to do. It’s well known that the Nazis in particular deploy their military assets in populated areas. I’m concerned that in spite of Russian numbers, training, and excellent weapons, sorting out the forces bombarding Donesk will resemble combined operations in Syria. Standoff weapons alone won’t suffice. The provocative actions meant to galvanise a decisive military action is just what the Nato chiefs are hoping for, just what they need to impose discipline on Europe overall and Germany in particular, and not least, cancelling NS2. Everything depends on provoking an emotional outrage and the associated demand to strike, and hard. This is the aim of psyops. Make them so mad they can’t think strait, so mad that they just blunder into the traps that were carefully set for them. I think the evacuation idea is an exceptional instance of unemotional strait thinking. Remove the citizens from the range of artillery or whatever distance the relevant authorities determine. But don’t evacuate the soldiers, though their positions in an unpopulated region can be moved back a bit. In sum, the evacuation plan (1) secures the safety of the people. 2 It obviates the need for strategic depth. Creating an unpopulated area opens up a free fire zone. Trespassers can be managed with stand off weapons. 3 The Ukrainian Army now has nowhere to go and basically nothing to do. That’s Kiev’s problem. 4 The defensive plan foils the Nato fabrication of ‘Russian Aggression’. This has European and particularly German consequences, not least concerning NS2. Finally, and as Orlov points up, the situation of the residents in the Donbass resonates with something much broader and of real significance: the Russian diaspora. Many Russians left during the 90s and subsequently. They variously have their reasons for being where they are but in time the reasons that moved them in the first place will conceivably move them back. The Federal government should recognise this and plan accordingly. The Donbass measures would make an excellent start and pave the way for others to follow. Last point: it should go without saying that a strategic retreat is a temporary measure. They’ll be back.
Thanks, Kevin, for an excellent, detailed summary for some of the pieces I skipped over filled in nicely. (I tried to keep the article short.) There is just one more element to add, which is something western thinking can’t fathom, which is:
For Russia, a retreat is a path to victory. This is a key piece of the Russian psyche, as represented in war songs going back at least to 1812. In the Russian mindset, ordering an evacuation of Donbass would be Phase I. In Phase II the enemy would attempt to conquer a patch of scorched earth while being blown to bits. Phase III would involve Russian tanks rolling into Washington with nobody left to defend it, as they rolled into Berlin in 1945. Evacuation sends an unmistakable signal: this is going to be serious.
Firstly, thank you Kevin Frost for a clear, clever and thoughtful comment it adds to Mr Orlov’s suggestion and shows a clear path to a temporary measure to save lives and protect the innocent. The fighters can stay to defend their land and homes; but the non-fighters, elderly, women and children should not become the casualties of a Nazi regime and NATO.
Mr Orlov, it is clear you appreciated Kevin’s comment and make this very crucial and valid point:
“For Russia, a retreat is a path to victory. This is a key piece of the Russian psyche, as represented in war songs going back at least to 1812. In the Russian mindset, ordering an evacuation of Donbass would be Phase I. In Phase II the enemy would attempt to conquer a patch of scorched earth while being blown to bits. …..”
The scorched earth method has been used by Russia many times as a path to victory in the past. Russia will do what is right for its country and people. We can all sit here talking about it – but at the end of the day – it will be their decision and their decision alone.
The US response today sums up their war tactics – illegal sanctions (based on lies):
https://www.rt.com/russia/521127-us-sanctions-new-round/
“US imposes new sanctions against Russia, expels ten diplomats & targets national debt in move Moscow may view as major escalation”
That’s all they have – sanctions.
Exactly. People have difficulties in understanding the concept of scorched earth.
Now a ‘perverse’ question. What if in fact there are the Russians luring the ‘West’ into a quagmire?
Idiots can bark/bleat, this is a pretty good and realistic idea for Russia to pull off. The only thing I would add to it is that Russia performs a detailed survey of land ownership in Donbass in order for the children/grandchildren of the refugees to be able to come back to their ancestral homes without land disputes.
Very interesting and provocative article from Mr. Orlov — arguing an approach that would definitely constitute a judo move.
Would it work? As a U.S. citizen (a very despondent one), I don’t know enough to venture an informed opinion.
A friend I met in Kiev in 2009 moved his family to Krasnodar — shortly after the putsch in 2014. He said he did not want his young son to grow up under fascists. He had to give up a lot, including visiting his elderly parents who remained behind in Kiev, but he still feels it was his only choice.
Many thanks to Mr. Orlov for his historical insights, lucid writing, and his ability to think outside ‘the box’ in a nightmarish situation.
One of your best Mr.Orlov. I expected the commentary section to be somewhat littered with Ukie trolls., but it comes with the subject. However I remember that in the beginning of this “conflict” Novorossiyans where out en masse demonstrating against the Nazi regime, as Ukrainians under ukranian flags. There were no Russian flag or anything of the sort to be seen. But of course the war, the massacres and the ukro Nazi burning of the trade unions house in Odessa changed all that..
Both the US and Canada have obviously (a well documented fact) been nurturing these ukro Nazi’s who spawns new generations of Hitler-jugend year after year one of their offsprings were even sent from the US to be minister of finance in the new shiny US imposed putsch junta, Natalie Jaresko, isn’t it almost incredible how ideology and hatred can unite these people.
However, Putin did say that Russia didn’t need more (cold and uninhabitable) land but, given the choice, wouldn’t the majority in regions from Odessa to Donbass prefer their traditionally Russian regions to unite with the motherland?
Larchmonter445: ‘.. pro Ukrainian folks would be the political leverage against the proposal ever working out as Mr. Orlov suggests. It won’t be an empty zone.’
If the Russians have a definite and workable plan, which is supported by the Donbass political and military authorities, the Ukrainian loyalists will be faced with a situation of evacuated cities, no government services, running water, electricity, busses, jobs, paychecks, or stores to shop in. Like it or not, they’ll have to go to. There’s no need to forcibly move them. They can stand on their rights and starve (US airlift cargo of cookies?). They can go to Russia or over the border to Ukraine. But I don’t see how they would be able to stay put. Your other argument is against retreat in principle, ie. blood soaked soil, ancestral graves. Orlov’s argument does not call for ceding territory. But in any case, I’m hoping the way forwards will become clear on the 21st of this month.
Автор должен поставить себя на место тех людей, которые остались и живут в этих условиях. Неужели они не уехали бы, если бы хотели.
Даже если у Российского руководства хватит воли выполнить эту гуманитарную операцию, это не осуществимо из за желания людей оставаться на своей земле (своей Родине)
Мы не “перекати поле”.
Поэтому считаю подход автора наивным.
Экскурс автора в историю максимально правдив.
С уважением.
Google translation,MOD:
The author must put himself in the shoes of those people who stayed and live in these conditions. Wouldn’t they have left if they wanted to.
Even if the Russian leadership has enough will to carry out this humanitarian operation, it is not feasible due to the desire of people to remain in their land (their homeland)
We are not rolling fields.
Therefore, I think the author’s approach is naive.
The author’s excursion into history is as truthful as possible.
Sincerely.
Конечно, лучше всего ничего не делать и спокойно наблюдать, как Украина превращается в Ук-руину. Но если Донбасс превратится в Сребреницу, то лучше будет, если все оттуда к тому моменту уедут в Россию. Это развяжет российским военным силами руки в демилитаризации и де-НАТОизации Украины.
Yandex translation. Mod:
Of course, it is best to do nothing and calmly watch as Ukraine turns into Ukraine. But if the Donbass turns into Srebrenica, it will be better if everyone from there will leave for Russia by that time. This will untie the hands of the Russian military forces in the demilitarization and de-natoization of Ukraine.
Advocating ethnic cleansing and promoting it as a victory for ethnically cleansed is one of the most surreal moments I had a privilege to come across.
Too many seem to forget 2014 and the heroes that stood for freedom,and yes for Russia in Donbass.Someone here said that people in Donbass stood with Ukrainian flags,no they didn’t.There were countless videos available back then showing people waving Russian flags.There were even long giant Russian flags carried in the streets by hundreds if not thousands of protesters. But some have not forgotten,here is one of them from Donetsk a few days ago remembering the anniversary of those days:
Congratulations to all on the seventh anniversary of the adoption of the Regional State Administration in Donetsk!
It was a real holiday for us. Our first Victory, which the whole world spoke about! And no matter how the traitors tried to rewrite history, no matter how they tried to appoint new heroes, it was from this day, and it was with us that the journey of returning Donbass to Russia began. Don’t be us, don’t be this day seven years ago, nothing would happen. Many of those who were no longer there… But we – those who are still alive, remember them and remember how it really was.
Happy Holidays! Always yours, always with you, Yakut.
′′ I remember you Brother!”
They will not write books about us,
There will be no beautiful words.
Heroes in this intrigue
Corrupt dogs will be appointed.
We were one circle,
No faces, no names, no races.
The crowd recognized a friend
Through the masks, according to the contour of the eyes
We shared both bread and water
Smoked one – for all.
Went to watch in bad weather
And there were ′′ One – for all!”
Standing in the alarm tightly,
Neither of us shook,
Raised a tricolor canvas
An icon in the battle for Donbass.
But life is not always beautiful,
Medals covered the chest,
Not those who shouted – Russia!
With guns, choosing a path.
We were forgotten quickly
Vivat will be shouted to others!
We don’t even have a fireworks shot.
But I remember you Brother!
I will not forget them neither, even if I’m living far away. I witnessed what happened,
saw the events unfolding though smart phone videos on a still uncensored you tube channel.
I will not forget that young women 28 years old killed by a sniper in Donbass. I will not forget that woman in Lugansk, killed by a bomb thrown by a Ukrainian jet, she was begging for a telephone to call her family…
having no legs left, she died some minutes later.
I wrote an article, translated many newspapers, even though my connection was too slow here in the French mountains. 7 years passed and you tube is not free anymore, social media punishes those with a different opinion in our “free democratic countries”, people like me became “Putinversteher”, “complotistes” and more of those nice words in different languages but Crimea is free and you are still resisting!
I have an uneasy feeling about “evacuation”, seeing the images of my Belgian people fleeing towards France in WWII, while being killed by German Stukas…
Well done. Very informative history lesson.
A hugely complex situation.
I note an image from 1939 recently posted on Facebook by Petri Krohn.
“The next European war will start in The Ukraine (Look magazine, March 14, 1939)’
https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10157261094399364&set=a.347364019363
Well, the image of Hitler is now replaced with NATO and Stalin by V. Putin.
Otherwise, it’s “On with the Show” it seems … sick people.
However, the main future scenario presented here seema less than realistic, imo.
The India/Pakistan scale Donbass depopulation option is undermined by a number of points — and the argument at times feels like the data is being fitted to the theory.
1. It is a lot of hassle to achieve what?
A Chernobyl Badlands the thesis says Russia defends in any case — populated or empty. The argument appears to be to save lives and enact some from of unexpected counter-logic Judeo throw to NATO etc. As the 1939 map/image indicates, NATO is not going to stop pressuring Russia’s western borders. Clearly there is something in the peninsular European waters that every 2-3 generations they forget history and try it again. Either Russia accepts this going forward or they do something about it so darn hard that London, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Berlin (especially) essentially become passive subaltern gene pools like post-atomic bombed Japan.
2. Clearly, Russia benefits from the confusing chaos of the status quo. Why change the situation?
The internal civil war situation in Ukraine provides the stalemate buffer situation in that the rebel ‘breakaway’ Donbass republics provide a checkmate voting block that would likely change the central government politics in Kiev to a more pro (or at least neutral) Russian stance. NATO seepage can infiltrate but not assume control under this structure. The status quo (short of all out war) is as good as a buffer state as any Belasrus. Why fix it?
3. Russia speaking, Russian citizens (passports), Russia needs workers…
Again, Russian speaking dual passport holders already engender a “responsibility to protect” (R2P). And cultural assimilation logistics can be resolved by individual agency — as pointed out in the article, many able young have found elsewhere to live and work. Russia can offer all the open doors (as Biden with Mexico) necessary for cheap skilled (Russian speaking) labour to flow in over relaxed borders as needed for seasonal work. They help Russia work by day and vote in Kiev by night — thus keeping NATO at bay and extending the Russian currency influence westward by way of remittances and savings. Russian national politics is made more complicated, but Russian civilization (culture/language etc) is maintained and even extended under groundd economic growth scenarious.
4. Not “Russian aggression!”. No matter how smart and strategic Russia (Putin) thinks such a Judeo move would be, there is absolutely no way the captured western media (read Rupert Murdoch plus a couple more) will present it other than in the framework of Russia holding “war hostages” for work-camp slavery and actively undermining Kiev etc. Putin obviously ‘forced’ the Crimean peninsular to accept his terms (all those little green men with guns to grandma’s head on voting day etc). This western situation is an insane asylum scenario run by the inmates totally fabricating their own imagined inverted reality by creative wordsmithing – misunderstood complex postmodernism gone completely off the real-number scale into the imaginary domains. “Alice through the looking glass” and the square root of minus one policy stuff in spades.
5. Terra nullius! This is nothing more than a western colonial expansionist ‘wet dream’ – go ask Australian aboriginals, or the American Indians what they think of it. A Russian retreat (as it would be framed) would simply invite MSM propaganda to indulge in hyper-propaganda that the guilty Russians were finally forced by Uncle Joe Biden to pull back via NATO pressure (hence justifying the budget costs and claiming the Donbass coal reserves as war treasure) and, weak as they are, take hostages at gun point. And now even more eastward pressure to free the Ukrainians hostages under western R2P would be justified even unto Moscow… after all, Nepolean and Hitler must have been right but just laked the modern technology (and NATO aliance etc). No matter what the Russians did, they would not change the western newspaper headlines etc.
So, in summary, an interesting though experiment but far more complicated than it needs to be in order to maintain a NATO-avoiding buffer zone of pro-Russian Ukrainian voters keeping Kiev always on its toes and out of any resolved deal with Europeans/Americans.
At the moment Putin/Russia have all the cards and little of the risk. The Germans get NS2 (eventually) or it is a ‘parked 99.9% completed’ existential threat to Ukrainian transit $booty. Ukraine plays up, Europe gets cold winters. Ukraine fails economically and the EU pays the bill. NATO can annoy but not move east formally as long as: (a) the Ukraine remains in civil war dispute mode; and (b) Russia maintains the requisite ‘soft’ R2P pressure/capacity on their western borderlands to support the already agreed Minsk Agreement. Not ideal, but workable, and over time it will become increasingly clear whose foot (NATO or Russia) is caught in the bigger bear trap/snare.
The Russians have obviously thought this our years ago and simply need to hold the line, and their fire, for as long as necessary for current western economic catharsis to work itself through the system and finally undermine the NATO budget. Timeframe? Strong correlations with loss of $usd reserve (printing press) currency status. Meanwhile all trains to/from Beijing!
I agree. The best strategy of all is to do nothing at all and wait for everything west of the Russian border to turn into a smoldering pile of crap. But that wouldn’t make such an interesting article, now, would it?
No it wouldn’t but Russia may want to stabilize a few things which can blow up the whole region, like the nuclear plant f.ex.
Mental gymnastics in my opinion. Sounds like something that Neville Chamberlain would cook up.
I don’t even know where to start,I’m so shocked by that idea.The situation is horrible there is no doubt.There are no easy solutions.But there are some things you don’t do,and that is one of them. At the risk of idiots attacking me for quoting an imperialist, I will anyway. Churchill’s response to Chamberlain’s actions would be my comment to Putin if he seriously did that “You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You chose dishonour, and you will have war”.
Who gains the most from that idea?
Well some might say the citizens there that would be saved from worry of attack.At the cost of losing their age old motherland.The graves of their ancestors,everything that made them who they are.
Russia may temporarily, they gain more workers.But at the cost of billions in resettlement costs.And having neo-nazi wolves and NATO a few miles from Rostov and the other South Russian regions.It’s best to remember that the biggest region there the “Kuban”, the Uki neo-nazis claim is really Ukrainian territory anyway. So in a while we can start this all over again. Except this time without the Donbass as a buffer region.
Putin maybe,he would for a short while avoid a show down with NATO and the EU.But at the cost of utter fury from the right and the left in Russia.Too often we forget that the Russian nationalists ,and the Russian communists both come together over Donbass.I remember that there were joint staged concerts in 2014 by them to support Donbass. And then there is the chuckling of all those that now will smile and say,”we told you all along Putin would sell out Donbass.And you wouldn’t believe us”.
People terrified of war.And lets face it most of us are ,me included.At least that idea would stop a showdown between Russia and NATO.But then that is only for this time.It’s not like NATO is going to stop pushing Russia,there is Crimea,Kaliningrad,Belarus,Georgia,Transnistria,the Kurile Islands,Syria,and any other crisis that the US and NATO want to face off Russia about,see Churchill quote above.
But even with these,who are the really big winners you might ask? Why NATO,the US,and the neo-nazis of course.Some might ask ,but how so UB?
Image after preaching that you are going to “defeat Russia”,Russia up and retreats,removing all the pro-Russian people you wanted to get rid of anyway. You get your “Croatian type blitzkieg” without actually needing to do any fighting.They’ll be fireworks in Kiev,and speeches about “Crimea your next” some of them will probably add the Kuban in to that as well,because after all they are Ukie neo-nazis . And NATO and the US will be “pumped” smiling telling each other,See that’s how you handle Russia,be firm and they’ll run”.As for the sanctions,ask Iran about how that works getting them taken off.So yeah,there is our winners list.And oh,by the way,the idea of a no mans land,not happening.Once the Donbass people loyal to their land are gone.There is no way Russia will go to war to keep that area empty.That horse is out of the barn.This idea leads to the saying “winner takes all”.
Oh,but then who is the loser in this story.Why I think you can guess from my breakdown who that is. Russia my friends ,its Russia. Not only do they look bad to anyone supporting them.But they are stuck with an emboldened NATO.A Ukraine even more anti-Russian with the feeling of victory under their belts.But Putin then has to face an enraged opposition,including now all those hundreds of thousands that supported Donbass with their money,and many their blood.
So no,a well written idea,from a great writer.But not an idea that we should support. And lastly,has anyone else noticed that most people supporting this idea are new posters here. Just saying.
I fully support everything you wrote here. Thanks for the effort.
US de facto declares war on Russia.
US to announce sanctions linked with Russia’s sovereign debt — Reuters
New: Biden admin as soon as Thurs will sanction ~12 Russian individuals, including govt & intel officials, & ~20 entities in response to SolarWinds hack & election interference. ~10 Russian officials will be expelled from US
And so the other shoe drops. Coupled with Biden’s earlier phone call, it’s an interesting gambit, testing which posture is more important to Putin: the one in which he reacts indignantly to sanctions, or the one in which he attends a badly desired summit.
It goes without saying there won’t be any Putin-Biden summit now.
Big mistake for the Biden administration; the offer of a summit was the right move, now we’re two steps back again in what is an extremely precarious situation.
Russia sensibly didn’t react immediately to Biden’s summit suggestion; they must have known something else was up.
https://tass.com/economy/1278203
https://tass.com/world/1278237
Putin soft diplomacy with neocons was a big mistake.
Well, actions speak stronger than words! If that’s true and US continues to promote its baseless accusations it will get adequate response and deprive the world of maybe the last opportunity to avoid Great Powers’ confrontation instead of solving acute problems.
Don’t agree with this article at all. It is a pitiful and weak solution to the Ukraine problem.
Entire Ukraine except Galicia should be annexed by Russia.
Why are some people scared of annexing Ukraine?
Why you even want to care about what the West thinks of Russia annexing all of Ukraine? This is weak. This is pathetic.
It is a loser’s mentality.
I can’t think of a single good reason why Russia would want to annex the Ukraine. It doesn’t need the territory. It already got all the best Ukrainians living in Russia. The place is a ridiculous impoverished mess. The people have been brainwashed into worshiping the West and hating Russia. From the Russian point of view, Crimea was an obvious victory, Donbass is not obvious at all and the rest of the Ukraine… forget about it! It is somebody else’s problem.
Dmitry, I’ll give you some good reasons (in no particular order):
It gives Russia land space (buffer) and time (missile flight time) wrt to hato (except for the insane Western ukraine).
It would also deny hato the whole coast of ukraine, so no yank naval base(s) there.
It would be able to close down some/most(?) of those satanic yank biolabs.
Nuke power stations would be under its control – in need of maintenance etc.
It would stop the sale of much of ukrainian black soil.
It would also stop a lot of the satanic yank GMO sh!t.
It would stop the fracking just north of Gorlovka etc, and the pollution of the Kalmius river.
The Donbass could become a powerhouse again, especially if its industry is upgraded; it has a whole lot of potential as a revenue stream for Moskva.
Regarding the concept of brothers and non-brothers, well, who supported brothers and who supported non-brothers? Did Moscow and the Russian elite back actual pro-Russian people, groups, media, and NGOs, or Party of Regions guys? Guys who have their families and assets in the West, and simply want to shaft Russia more slowly. Also, when actual brothers were purged, fired, driven out of the country or even burnt, did the non-brothers pay a price? Did big brother beat up the punks who needed it? After the coup, Moscow had countless options for what to do. There was no clear government. Special forces, local groups, massive bribes, all kinds of things could have been done. Moscow instead recognized the new Nazi regime as legitimate. Why?
The US supports all kinds of different folks and groups, from environmental to anti-corruption to, well, pretty much everything under the Sun. And cares about what the people think. And pays to send young and promising folks to the West to learn how different groups can influence society. Young and pro-Russian folks had what options?
It seems to me that there is a lack of reflection on the part of many pro-Russian folks on what went wrong. From lousy ambassadors to even worse efforts to build supportive groups to … And this is one reason why the coup happened. I remember a NATO guy saying after the incorporation of the Crimea that he worked in Kiev for several years on getting the Ukraine ready for its integration into the West and NATO de facto eventually, and he felt that Moscow had resigned herself to losing, and was just posturing with talk about red lines or anything. The reason? Moscow had done nothing to defend herself, just talk, so why would they actually start to do anything now? After all, talk is cheap, as we know so well from Washington. But the same applies to Moscow. They made little effort to actually keep the Ukraine under their influence.
I agree with you. I fear that Russia does not have a clear strategy of national interest like the Soviet Union did, but only a policy that protects the interests of the ruling class still substantially Yeltsinian. This explains the loss of Ukraine without lifting a finger and explains why Russia is now completely surrounded by hostile forces after thirty years. Geostrategically, the loss of Ukraine is a strategic defeat for Russia as a country but perhaps for the elite that governs Russia it was good business.
I fail to see the Donbas residents desiring to move to Russia. The Donbas is their home for many generations. You don’t just give up your home – as is witnessed by all who would care to look. These people are fighting for their homes and homeland. Who is Russia or anyone else to tell them to evacuate? They have demonstrated clearly over recent years that they are prepared to stay and fight and die for their homeland. I think Orlov is discounting that resolve and essentially depersonalising the people of the Donbas by talking as if they were owned by Russia or anyone else for that matter.
Secondly, Orlov’s solution does not solve the Crimea issue. Currently, the Ukies have cut off Crimea’s water and energy sources. How would Orlov solve that? The Crimeans are already a part of Russia, and even Russia would not want a mass evacuation of Crimea since it is their only warm water port and a central pillar of their defence.
This notion of let’s everyone back off in the interest of peace does nothing of the sort. What do people hope to accomplish by another peace accord that everyone knows will not be respected? The Ukies will never retreat from their constant pressure on Crimea and Donbas, no matter what agreements are made between Russia and the EU and the USA. They will continue to be a thorn in Russia’s side for the foreseeable future if nothing is done about them – and in the process be a constant drain on Russia’s attention. Of course, Ukraine might well fall apart, but is that going to make things more stable from Russia’s perspective? Maybe. Maybe not. Yes, Russia can say let the EU worry about them, but how is that possible? Ukraine is strategically important to Russia. If it falls apart, who steps in to fill the vacuum? NATO? How would Russia feel about that? And would that not drive us back to just where we are now?
IMO, Russia needs to step in and gain control of all Eastern (including Kiev) and Southern Ukraine regions while she has the chance now to do so – regardless of Western sanctions and consequences. Russia is almost free of the Western financial constraints now and has the prospect of a huge Eastern market opening up whilst Europe and America consume themselves. At this point in time, Russia has the military power to succeed, if she will act.
“The Crimeans are already a part of Russia, and even Russia would not want a mass evacuation of Crimea since it is their only warm water port and a central pillar of their defence.”…
Can you just open a map and search for: Taman, Novorossiysk,Tuapse, Sochi.
When you will be on Novorossiysk, have a look close to the oil terminal inside the bay, before the commercial port, what do you see? The Navy base!!!
The daily propaganda has had its effect, It is a widespread myth that Russia took over Crimea because it needs the port of Sevastopol. Russia intervened in Crimea to protect the local population and that is good.
Russia has other ports on the Black Sea including a base for its navy, the construction of this base was taken in the early 2000s. By the way, in which port is the “Tartus express” loaded?
If tomorrow, or after after tomorrow, for some reason Crimea decides to join Ukraine, this will not cut off Russia’s access to the Black Sea…
My understanding has been that the status of Sevastopol and Crimea were always entirely separate issues, even if they appear interlinked, with most of the support manpower in Sevastol living in Crimea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Crimea#Status_of_Sevastopol
There is another element to this: The US has 800 bases around the globe at the lowest count, 1200 if one includes minor installations. Russia has had at the most 5 bases from which to project its maritime power. So would a Russian ever tolerate the US having 800+1 base whilst Russia experiences 5 minus the one key base?
So does it matter if they built an extra one, which allowed additional facilities and capacity for wider activity to be constructed, which Sevastopol cannot accommodate (or as you seem to imply, Russia felt the need to have more sovereignty over its new base compared to the status of Sevastopol?) Both were and are valuable to Russia. Sevastopol was always and continues to be “needed” as a vital resource to Russia…. in practical functional terms and in political power projection terms and in terms of national pride …So what, if they built and continue to build more naval installations?
@Analyst, the decision to build the Novorossiysk base was taken in the early 2000s and this choice was confirmed in the following years in view of the difficulties encountered by the Russian Navy, for example in terms of logistics. Even today with the railway bridge it is much easier to use the new base, cf “Tabris express”.
This explains the choice of Novorossiysk which offers more flexibility, not to mention its proximity to two other facilities, the Raievskaya training base and the Krymsk air base.
http://kalugafoto.net/goroda-i-strany/2017-prielbruse-pyatigorsk-taman-anapa/1693-poligon-raevskij-pod-novorossijskom
Since the Novorossiysk naval base was almost completed in 2014 it is wrong to say that the Sebastopol base is vital. Yes, it offers a little more facility underground, yes the ships are moored in different places but once again today the advantage goes to Novorossiysk.
In fact the base at Novorossiysk is not new but has been seriously expanded to accommodate the entire Black Sea fleet, of course after the return of Crimea to the Russian flag, part of the fleet remained in Sevastopol.
@Analyst, If you look carefully at the coast in the Novorossiysk region you will find “something else” than vineyards… I mean, everything has been planned for the protection of this region for a long time, is Crimea a plus? Yes I think so, is it “indispensable” or “vital” as you say, no.
The “heavy army” facilities are not in Crimea but just next door….
ps:From a “tourist” point of view it is interesting to see that if the “topography” of Crimea is often close to the one you find in Krasnodar Krai, sandy beaches and vineyards included, there is another atmosphere and it is a really charming place, I have a soft spot for Balaclava that I visit every time I go to Crimea
Victor, I agree with your comment entirely. I believe the point of the Russian forces buildup on the border is for protecting the Russian citizens in the Donbass from the Ukronazi threat against their homes and lives. Evacuating them would leave a vacuum that the US and EU slime lords would want to fill, in order to set up missiles to destroy Russia. Although I would like to see Russia wipe out the Ukronazis, I trust Mr. Putin to handle this situation in the way he (and his smart military men) determine is best for his country.
Patrick
It seems that some people have forgotten the Srpska Krajna case when there was a mass evacuation done. So it is totally possible.
I still think that everyone of the large actors West of the Donbass border right now favours a war(besides,maybe, the Germans -NS2).
The Russians can definetly do without it of course, given that the lights in Ukraine are gonna be out in a year or so anyway. But I am sure they are ready either way. We will know sooner rather then later .
Krajina was not an evacuation.
Krajina was a war crime where the civilians were forced to flee the. Croat-NATO army..
The sick and infirm and those who could not run were slaughtered.
I have seen a lot of reference to ex -Yu and none of them Krajina , Srebrenica (geez!) etc do not apply here.
I am refering to the mass evacuation of the Serb population from the now Croatian lands. I am not arguing that it was very dramatic, I am just saying that mass movement of civilian population can be done, even with scarce resoursces as was the situation in this Serbian enclave .
If Russia does not act to ‘clean’ KIEV of the nazi junta once and for all, it will simply end up with the biggest US base or baseS in the world at her border(bigger than kosovo). So simple as that. It is not a problem of Donbass, ukrainians(who cares?), nor to occupy this third world country, which in fact never existed(artificial creation a bit like Belgium).
It is up to Moscow to choose. Any proposal or agreement from the US will never be reliable, never.
For the rest after cleaning let this shit and the big invoice be paid by those who destroyed it(US and EU). It will cost hundreds of billions for decades. They already lost 150 billions in sanctions, and it seems they love that.
BREAKING: The US has imposed new sanctions against Russia. Joe Biden’s degree expels 10 diplomats & targets 30 individuals & companies.
However, penalties against its national debt is the move Moscow will certainly view as a major aggressive escalation.
https://www.rt.com/russia/521127-us-sanctions-new-round/
Dmitry Orlov says For the Russians, there are no good choices that are obvious.
1. Not responding to Ukrainian provocations and doing nothing while they shell and invade the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk, killing Russian citizens who live there, would make Russia look weak, undermine the Russian government’s position domestically and cost it a great deal of geopolitical capital internationally. More than that it would betray the promise to protect Russian people world-wide.
2. Responding to Ukrainian provocations with overwhelming military force and crushing the Ukrainian military as was done in Georgia in 2008 would be popular domestically but could potentially lead to a major escalation and possibly an all-out war with NATO.
3. What are the obvious good choices, if any? The answer, Orlov believes, is obvious: evacuation. Evacuation would happen anyway in scenarios 1 and 2. Only it would happen AFTER full war started and with a lot of killing and suffering. Now Mr. Orlov proposes what nobody thinks of, evacuate before any war starts. Some say that they’ll shoot you in the back as you’re emigrating. Fine, that’s the false flag (real flag in this case) event that can blamelessly initiate option 2.
4. Now that we are out of the box, let’s think of how to put a positive spin on it. Russia wants to develop vast tracks of resources, potential farmland, timber, mining, develop border areas with China, manufacturing, transportation, you name it. But for one, it seems there are not enough people.
So they free up some capital in central banking and they offer homesteads all along the Belt and Road, the North-South Transport Corridor, the trans-Siberian railway, and wherever they want to develop new lands. These homesteads will be big enough to sustain a large family and with profit to grow and support children and grandchildren. In agriculture these homesteads will be organized into cooperatives that will have shared machinery for tilling, planting and harvesting. The transportation routes are being made anyway, roads, rail, transmission lines, fiber optics, pipelines, water resources, All the way from China to Europe. Wherever these communities are located, services will be right there.
To opt in, just trade your deed of the homes and assets that you now have, for a new homestead of higher value. The Ukrainian deeds will be held by a Ukrainian holding company for future development. But wait a minute, that’s not fair to the Russian people living in Russia. Right, so the homestead program is open to every Russian citizen. Just trade in your deed of your present property and go out on a pioneer adventure as a new land owner.
Now we have urban homes in the system too, that can be further offered to Donbass people who want to opt in but have no rural experience. They will find the city jobs that other Russians left in order to homestead in the new lands. Or if they have no deed to trade in they can rent one of these urban dwellings and work in the city.
Again, option 2 is always available, when it can be justified by attacks on innocent people, just trying to emigrate. Perhaps the long term situation in the Donbass will be similar to Mr. Orlov’s solution, that the ground is held as a buffer zone, and protecting those that didn’t leave, and preserving title to all the lands that the holding company has possession of. Pending future disposition.
No great leap of the imagination, once you’re out of the limited context of “either/or”. China moves way more people than that every year. Ask them how they do it?
You and Orlov and others commenting don’t seem to understand. The people remaining in the Donbas do not want to emigrate. They have been there for generations – their land, their homes, their people. The ones who wanted to emigrate have likely already done so.
It would be an economic decision. Trade the title to your property for a much bigger property in Russia. Some may not believe in it. Some might decide to double their money and move out of a war zone. Nothing says they couldn’t trade back in when peace is declared. Anyhow it is just a very unofficial proposal with a positive spin on it. Surely all wouldn’t take it.
If there is a hot war people will flood to the border anyway as refugees. The fact of doing something different may be much better than just standing pat facing each other down. Moving armies to the border will still be happening in the giant bluff off. Nothing changes from that angle.
As doug casey puts it:”For some reason, people have loyalty to a government controlling the piece of geography that they’re born into.”
is it really seen as some kind of loyalty, victory or what else to die on a battle ground? it makes 0 sense. come back when war is over. but well…ppl still believe the whole c-saga, so nevermind. go die for massmurderers and warmongers. insane…i am going to leave so called “germany” because i do not give a shit about the stupid ppl here. i started to hate “germany”, berlin and all the brainwashed socialist-fascists-globalist warmongers. no reason to die here. better live somewhere else where you’re existence is appreciated. jm2c – no offence :)
Many thanks to Orlov for a tour de force on the Ukraine in particular, and east Europe in general.
As I find, there is a significant takeaway for analysts like me – Orlov has factored in a very important component of the conflict in the Russia-Ukraine border that is concerned with the relocation of citizens in Donbas region. Everybody speaks about political, military, economic fallouts – humanitarian side, even if not ignored, is not given much weightage either. The other point of Orlov’s article i.e. withdrawal from Novorossia is not a subject of great debate – if presence of nazis there prompts such withdrawal then presence of liberals in Moscow would call for relocation of Russian government from Moscow. Cowardice and dishonour can be part of tactics in a conflict, but that can’t become a strategy.
Till now close to 1 million residents of Donbas applied for Russian passport – it means most of the citizens are opposed to relocation to a safer place in Russia – the overwhelming majority (IMO, every 2 out of 3 persons) want to defend their homeland with help and support from mother Russia. Same is the case for rest of the Novorossians – given a chance, every 1 out of 4 would like to migrate to West Europe, 1 would like to join the neonazi goons to earn livelihood, while 2 would like to stay back in their homeland and defend it from a small group of ukro-nazi goons.
Undoubtedly, Russia has to take all necessary actions to support Donbas military to liberate Novorossia as a separate state in East Europe under Russian protection. And, as Orlov pointed out, relocation (at an unavoidable high cost) of the Novorossians who would like safer homes, should be arranged.
Those in the Donbas who wanted to emigrate have mostly done so already. Forced emigration is not an option.