By Nat South for the Saker Blog
In this article I want to highlight something that will be taking behind the scenes so to speak, following the recent sinking of the Black Sea Fleet Flagship, ‘Moskva’. That is, closure of the ‘Moskva’s untimely demise. This final activity consists of locating, securing, assessing the wreck and salvage of classified equipment and weapons. Moreover, the possibility of recovering bodies isn’t discounted either. It is extremely doubtful that the ‘Mosvka’ will ever be raised and refloated, however, certain parts and equipment will have to be removed from the wreck due to their top-level military sensitivity.
Writing about salvage operations probably isn’t the most interesting topic these days, however it is an integral part of naval activities. Naval salvage is largely unknown and only briefly reported in the media, usually as a footnote to incidents and accidents. Yet, as the U.S. Navy and UK navy know well, salvaging sensitive equipment is of paramount importance, with recent experience of having to salvage from the depths of the Mediterranean and the South China Seas, crashed F-35 wrecks. The aim is not to leave behind any bit of equipment that could be potentially useful intelligence to another military.
The Black Sea Fleet has a range of vessels that can directly participate in Search and Rescue (SAR) operations, survey and salvage operations. Most of which are auxiliary ships and have a dive support or seabed search capabilities of varying specifications.
There will be several phases to consider:
1. Securing of the site;
2. Seabed surveying of wreck site;
3. Close- up visual inspection and assessment of condition;
4. Removal of sensitive equipment / dangerous armament.
Given that the reported wreck site is in waters less than 100 metres, a couple of reports originating from Ukraine suggest around 50 metres, the operations will not be as onerous as for deep-sea salvage operations. Although this depends on the overall condition of the wreck. Various pieces of equipment are required, firstly survey – side scan sonar to map the seabed, then the use of remotely operated vehicles (ROVs) to inspect and locate equipment, and lastly dive-support equipment such as diving-chambers or even the use of a manned deep-sea rescue submersible, (though highly-unlikely) if so required.
Diagram outlining some of the equipment for rescue and salvage: ROV, diving bell, divers, submersibles. All bar the submersible is likely to be used during salvage operations of the Moskva.
For the initial phase, the surveying phase, the Black Sea Fleet has at its disposal several hydrographic and scientific ships that can carry out initial and detailed survey work of the area, (Epron, Seliger, or the Project 862/II Yug-class Hydrographic vessel ‘Donuzlav’ for example). There are other smaller hydrographic vessels, (Moma or Finik class) in the fleet that can also survey the site.
The Black Sea Fleet has ships with heavy lifting capacity, such as the large mooring/buoy tender/rescue ship Project 141, Kashtan Class, KIL-158 with its 100-ton heavy lift gantry. Then there is the ‘Epron’, designed to perform salvage, lifting and manned diving operations amongst other roles. The rescue tug ‘Spasatel Bekh’, (previously SB-739), which has a dive support capability for up to 60 metres deep, but it can deploy ROVs and other surveying equipment. Likewise, there are several other dedicated rescue tugs, with a multi-role capability, such as the ‘SB-742’ or the ‘Kapitan Gurev’, (Project 22870), to assist in inspection and salvage work, (with dive support complex onboard), able to support diving operations at a depth down to 60 m. These could also assist in salvage rescue operations, with their lift or dive support roles, as was the case in Syria with the salvage of crashed military aircraft. Lastly, there is the salvage vessel ‘Sayany’, (Project 05361- Mikhail Rudnitsky Class) in service with the Black Sea Fleet. In short, there is no shortage of a range of vessels that can participate in operations to retrieve equipment and weapons.
A case is that of the signals intelligence ship (AGI) ship ‘Liman’, that sank after a collision with a merchant ship, ‘Youzarsif H’, on April 27, 2017, roughly 20 miles northwest of the Bosporus Strait. The Russian Navy quickly sent an auxiliary ship to guard the area, then the ‘Seliger’, (Project 11982 research ship), was sent to survey and assess the wreck. Following this, ‘SB-739’, a Project 22870 ocean-going rescue tug was sent onsite as part of the operations to retrieve sensitive equipment. All in all, several ships had different roles in the overall operation, the KIL-158, Epron, Seliger and SB-739. The Liman sank outside Turkish territorial waters, nevertheless, retrieving top-secret material from the vessel was a matter of extreme urgency given the role of the vessel and proximity to a NATO state. A similar situation is expected regarding the ‘Moskva’.
At a push, even the ‘Vsevolod Bobrov’, a Project 03182 logistics support vessel, could also assist in various aspects of operations, since having cranes for cargo work, it can conduct seabed surveys and dive support, (decompression chamber onboard). Additionally, the Black Sea Fleet operates the ‘Kommuna’, (*) onboard there is a ROV, (Pantera Plus), which capable of operating to depths of up to 1,000 metres. (Vesti December 2010), and it also has a rescue submersible, (AS-28) onboard. (Russian MOD 2017).
The Russian Navy has developed considerable expertise with rescue operations, over the last decade, including assisting Argentina in the search for the ARA ‘San Juan’ in 2017. The Russian MoD regularly published information on exercises carried out using a variety of equipment, including mini submersibles, (DSRV), ROV robotics, and the use of deep-sea diving suits, and diving bells. Similarly, the Russian Navy has participated in several expeditions in recent years, which were often complex in nature, to retrieve sunken WW2 equipment in the Barents, to maintain salvage skills.
Another historical case related specifically to the Black Sea. On August 30, 1974, the ‘Otvazhnyy’, a Kashin Class destroyer caught fire and sunk, following an explosion of the aft SA-N-1 SAM magazine. Likewise, the Soviet Navy took the precaution of carrying out a clean-up and retrieval of equipment from the wreck site.
Update:
Ukrainian media has reported on the probable salvage operation as an article mentions that 8 Russian auxiliary ships are in the area. The article also suggests that Russia is contemplating using offshore drilling units to “raise the cruiser from the bottom of the flooded with the help of the so-called “Boyko towers” (Ukrainian drilling rigs “Peter Godovanets” and “Ukraine”). Surreal and far-fetched scenario, since these are drilling platforms not heavy-lift crane barges. Read the article at your peril.
NB:
*What has to be probably the oldest serving submarine rescue/salvage ship in the world and has the title of the longest serving sea-going commissioned Navy ship too. It is unlikely that the ship will be called into action to participate in any of the ‘Moskva’ salvage operation.
Gonzalo Lira is alive.
https://rtde.site/international/136786-gonzalo-lira-lebt-und-gibt/
Gonzalo on The Duran live as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PulorgALjY
One lucky guy….so many are not. Good to see he’s okay.
Cheers M
Does anyone have any idea what sort of flotation mass the ship would have flooded in water, as an order of magnetude? As an object which might putatively be lifted it is pretty big; on the other hand the relative mass compared to water is a fraction of what it would be in air. [Sorry, I am sure “flotation mass” is entirely wrong as a technical term but I dare say the intended meaning should be clear]. I soppose some kind of “flotation cushions would not have much viability with such a large object? How dangerous would it be removing submerged (and maybe partially corroded) missiles etc? That would presumably be the main advantage of trying to tow it into port.
Ship being hit, if done by frogmen, is an act of war. British building, Russian buildings burn down; if sabotage, clearly acts of war. But still quiet, deniable, and undeclared. Will we now see Defense buildings implode on both sides? This would mark a new phase.
Maybe if Defense blow up each others’ buildings, instead of dropping bombs, it could save millions of civilian lives.
However, maybe if someone escalates to civilian infrastructure, it could create millions of refugees. This would be a very bad thing to happen, especially in America.
Could someone reign in the secret service guys? Let’s keep it to military targets, guys. America, Britain, France, are way too vulnerable to start WWIII in the age of technology. Invulnerability is only for young teens.
Anyone who thinks that “accidents” like this one happen in a war-zone is delusional IMHO.
The sea was calm when the ship sank – unlike the official narrative. The idea that rough seas led to it sinking is unlikely. I suspect they did not want to reveal what really happened to it and sank it.
The Black Sea has areas that are 2000m deep. I fact that this ship sank in a shallow area seems intentional to me.
The sea wasn’t calm when the Mosvka sank, many hours later than the photos. Wind conditions NW wind of 10-15 m/s.
Why would the Mosvka be in the middle of the Black Sea when the operations are taking place off the coast of Ukraine? , shallow waters. Please refer to a chart to see the location.
Thank you for this excellent article Nat South.
I was hoping you’d do a write-up of the ‘Moskva’ for the Vineyard and I’m happy not to have been disappointed. Very informative article indeed.
I visit your blog quite often and the article that you wrote on 14 April, ‘Naval lore and losses’ is very interesting and informative as well, especially Part 2 where you discussed quite thoroughly the ‘Neptune’ missile and the ‘Moskva’ — warts and all — and its role in the Ukraine operation; and the possible causes of the fire and ultimate loss of the ship. It’s one of the best analyses of the Moskva incident that I’ve read anywhere.
Thank you very much for this. A kind of quick rough analysis based on what was being reported.
I will post an article here, but I like to give myself some time to look at the aspects, learn and then do a sitrep on it. As we are seeing now, more information is trickling through, such as the P-8 flight at the time. Another hint as to why the Pentagon and Kiev are keeping a low profile.
Yesterday India conducted a test of the Russia-India joint developed supersonic missile.
It hit a old ship as a target.
I was surprised to see the hull of the target ship opened up towards the outside.
Is it the normal way it happens when a ship is struck by a missile.
Your views on this would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/brahmos-supersonic-missile-creates-hole-in-indian-navy-s-abandoned-ship-101650444392218.html
I don’t think that missiles would necessarily cause the ship to explode outwardly. For
example, the NSM has a titanium blast fragmentation warhead of 125kg. This would cause
a different type of damage than a simple blast warhead.
@ Masr
Cant open the link in my country to see the image, however from viewing previous tests of supersonic missiles “outward” folding of the metal will be where the remnants of the missile have exited the ship – like an exit wound from a high velocity rifle bullet.
Modern anti-ship missiles are designed to punch a small hole through the hull and then explode just as they enter inside the ship – the blast and the missile parts being carried “through” the inside of the ship – and if large enough the blast could break the back of the ship, or at least destroy the interior more effectively than an explosion on contact.
A missile travelling at very high speed, and not impacting anything more solid than sheet metal may actually produce an exit hole more sustantial than the interior damage.
In this clip of an Iranian missile test, the remains of the missile can be seen exiting the opposite side of the ship and slashing in the water:
https://youtu.be/nUjX8jW4NM4?t=43
Like a bullet, entry hole, exit hole so yes. More spectacularly so on a target ship since it is stripped bare and sometimes bulkheads are weakened if it is a SINKEX.
Otherwise do an image search on the USS Stark, HMS Sheffield or others struck by AShMs
Some time, after the German Empirial Fleet sank itself in Scapa Flow, in 1919,
the Brits started to retrieve some vessels.
They closed many holes in the hulls and pumped compressed air inside, to lift them up.
This way, they managed to raise ships up to battelships of +30 000 tons.
A lot of this scrap-metal helped to reinforce the Royal Navy with new ships.
And your point is?
I don’t get it, why refloat a ship, 1970s built, with little modernisation, when there is an active conflict raging on. Money best used for modernising other ships with better survivability and fire suppression systems imho.
Just described another way of retrieving sunken ships, from shallow waters.
I didn’t say, they refloated the ships, I mentioned they used the metal, to build new ones.
I talked about scrap metal.
Moskva had fire on board first then it sank. Now we have fire in important research institute of Russia which killed 7 people and the fire in chemical plant. I began to wonder about coordinated sabotage..
When are we going to see retribution for these heinous act? How much time has to go by? I want to see an American LNG tanker go to the bottom of the ocean. This can be done in a number of ways.
If you do not send a powerful rejoinder, you just encourage more attacks like this. I have faith in the Russian Armed Forces. I know no matter what the Political leadership decides, they will get revenge on the bastards that did this. Recall when Turkey shot down our jet and blew up a helicopter. They paid a price. It was not heavily publicized, but they paid a big price.
What price was that, can you tell me, please?
What happened to that Turk F-16 pilot who shot down the Su-24 and the Daesch zombies who shot Oleg Peshov in his parachute and then shot down a rescue helicopter and killed a Russian Marine?
Did the U.S. Navy help the Ukies sink the Moskava? Going back to the P-8 Posideon plane. Was it sending information to Ukie missile battery? This video essentially says the USA did all the work and Russia and Putin know it. They obviously are not happy.
https://beforeitsnews.com/war-and-conflict/2022/04/situation-update-april-21-2022-usa-targeting-of-moskva-ship-is-russias-pearl-harbor-retaliation-is-next-mike-adams-must-video-2475021.html
The article suggests that Russia could use the new Sarmat ICBMs. Maybe this article is also disinfo because the corrupt Biden gang may want to conduct a false flag on the USA and blame Russia.
That rambling idiot is a complete waste of time. I thought this was a report of a P-8 bombing the Moskwa. It’s rambling speculation of a rapture freak carrying on the completely discredited premillenial dispensation eschatology. It’s now been two generations since the fake Israel was recognized as a nation in 1948. News flash for all you rapture freaks: Jesus plainly stated he is not returning until Christians have done their homework which is to institute the Kingdom of God on earth – Matthew 28:18-20.
Christians have been given all power to accomplish the task of making God’s enemies his footstool. To me that means everyone acknowledges and follows God’s law, not the malum prohibitum flatulence of legislatures and parliaments and “rulers” falsely so-called. God’s law is that given to Moses, expounded in Leviticus and Deuteronomy with the case law there and further interpreted by Jesus, very God and very man, in the New Testament, minus the sacrificial, ceremonial, and dietary parts of that law.
“Civil government” is an oxymoron, people will not submit to any such when God’s Kingdom is established on earth.
Anyway, “government” is nothing more than a collection of people – demon possessed for the most part – who call themselves “government” and claim a right to the lives and property of all the productive people they can terrorize, by threat of death and torture, into submission to their rule.
Just to clear up some ideas obtained on social media.
Ukrainian paradox is when gleefully stating that the Moskva sank with heavy loss of life, quickly, (take 1), while later posting up a chart of the reported sinking, at approximate coordinates 44°56′ N 31°44′ E.
Slight snag with the theory of it “quickly sank”. The report position of vessel in distress was approximate coordinates of 45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E as reported on satellite imagery.
Given the differences in locations, it seems that it was towed more than 25NM towards Crimea, when it finally foundered in the early morning of the 14th April, IN A STORM (Excuse me for the caps), but there was 6-7 Beaufort gusting up to 8 in that time period according to several weather apps, not the best conditions to tow a crippled ship.
https://www.ventusky.com/?p=44.1;41.7;5&l=wind-10m&t=20220413/2100
Nat South
the author of this article
https://natsouth.livejournal.com
The grand finale of misinformation has begun, a campaign like no other, friend and foe alike are affected if not part of the understanding.
Not sure how long it can last but the desperation can be seen in their eyes.
Neptune missiles can be ruled out because they have an active radar seeker that is easily detected and jammed. The three scenarios are external attack, sabotage and accident. Would the first two also require a forensic examination? If no forensics is carried out we can infer it was an accident and Russia already knows the cause.
Really? That simple? case closed? Move along…
Do you suggest the Russian Navy does not know what happened to the Moskva?
I believe they know exactly what happened, the sailors on board know what happened, and whatever happened is not in the interest of the MOD to announce.
If it was an accident they know exactly what happened. If it was an external attack how could they know exactly what happened?
The articles’s title is misleading: “Bringing to a close- Moskva”. Nothing is closed by a salvage operation. I would contend that it would be just the start of an investigation. Ukraine and the West have been spitting bull sh..t from the start. The Ukrainians said they did it, people imagine or hope that the west was involved, with surveillance etc.. The Russians said that was an internal explosion.
Who knows, unless Russia finds proof, but some even here believe that that the west might “persuade” Russia with clandestine operations are dreaming. Russia looks for proof, before stating anything,and the West jumps on anything that Ukraine alledges. I.E. A short time after the bucha massacres were posted; Biden called Putin a war criminal, and Jewish Macron deferred.
It does not matter to the West what proof the Russians come up with,as seen over these weeks in so many incidents. But it really matters to the rest of the world.
If Russia finds out that America directly attacked, then it is not just a case of reigning in Europe,and propping up the US dollars. It could well be a much faster collapse of the West,that was always going to happen anyway. Better hope for no difinitive proof.
“That is, closure of the ‘Moskva’s untimely demise. This final activity consists of locating, securing, assessing the wreck and salvage of classified equipment and weapons”
Elaborating beyond the misleading title, investigating the origins of the explosion is part of closing the matter from an operational standpoint.
What title would you have chosen?
The Russians have stated the facts, there was an explosion, given the area, there is ammunition storage for CIWS systems.
Odd there’s no mention of the successful salvage operation that raised the submarine Kursk. It’s a very interesting story. Rumor has it that nuclear torpedos were pilfered from the wreck sometime before the actual raising. But that’s hard to believe, because such an operation means Russia wasn’t monitoring/guarding the site. Something I doubt. Here’s a link to a short documentary of the raising of the Kursk.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uQJ6IMREvz8
Not odd. I decided that it was a totally different operation, the raising of a submarine by the West. It was a very complex and lengthy salvage of the submarine, however in today’s context, not achievable and not the same scenario.
Russia was guarding the site and dictated what and where the salvos and Norwegian diving teams could do.
Read somewhere that the Moskva had a phased array radar installed and could track upto 500kms. Ukies had moved their fighters to Romania and were taking off from there, over the black sea into Odessa and through to Dniepro
Somehow all these fighters got shot down and left them scratching their heads, till they figured out it was Moskva providing the intelligence
Then Moskva was targetted with drones and a confusing array of objects till it was hit with something really simple
This is all speculation, but experts can comment more
Yes it was in a C2 and AAW role. So by definition that’s what it was doing and why Snake Island was taken.
One final comment in looking at the photo of the ship Saker posted a few days ago from fire vent holes it seems to me something in the piping system may be behind or caused spread the fire. Given bulkheads etc….
I’m struggling to understand what you’re saying? Fire vent holes? Never seen or been on a ship with these. If you are Spanish speaking, tell me in Spanish.
What I’m seeing are portholes. Presumably some weren’t closed up tightly. So smoke escaped.
Nothing to do with piping system either. Certainly would not see from outside of the ship. There are isolating valves on different piping arrangements as part of fire prevention and as well as isolating valves for fire mains.
Anyhow what I’m seeing is extensive smoke spread throughout the deck level, either because of improper doors being secured in 1st instance+ combination of severity of fire or because of people flow through them to get to the liferafts on deck.
You are right. I think this really irresponsible act is perpetrated under the auspices of Plausible Deniability, and I expect somewhere a proportional retaliation under the same Plausible Deniability.
The Moskva was sunk by way of Moldova runways refueling, launching 7 Ukrainian jets. 2 jets carrying electronic countermeasures and 5 carrying missiles. The Moskva shot down all the planes and 3 of the 5 missiles, then the Moskva was hit with 2 missiles.
Personally I prefer to verify sources, if that’s not possible to say that “it is claimed”, not roll off some spurious US Ukrainian Hollywood production script.
… at least have the decency to name a source for this unverifiable info?
Maybe I’m old fashioned, now got a bucket of salt, taking a pinch isn’t enough on this lurid roller-coaster of constant clickbait stories.
I’m only responding to this claptrap because unverifiable stories get legs at hypersonic speeds these days. Especially those with a CIPsO fingerprint on them.
RT reports on ‘Moskva’ crew losses.
‘As a result of a fire on April 13, the Black Sea Fleet flagship Moskva was seriously damaged due to a detonation of ammunition, Russia’s Ministry of Defense claimed on Friday. One serviceman died and another 27 crew members went missing, it said.’
https://www.rt.com/russia/554362-sunken-warships-crew-losses/
Question : Did the Moskva have nuclear tipped missiles on board? Is she a nuclear disaster in waiting? The Ukkies didn’t sink it, the ‘Muricuns fingerprints are all over this disaster. She was being surveilled by ‘Muricun A.W.A.C. shortly before being hit. From where did this occur? Not Ukrainian soil.
No
Ask the question – nuclear tipped missiles, what kind of missile and for what purpose? I suggest to look it up and then ask yourself was this kind of ship in the Black Sea.
Do the Ukkies realize that ‘Muricuh doesn’t care if they die, as long as they take as many eeeevil Russkies with them? Meanwhile in Canaduh, children are now “identifing” as furries. That’s right, as felines. Some are demanding litter boxes be placed in schools. What a SHIT SHOW this morally bankrupt nation has become.
Is there any evidence the Moskva was bombed by a P-8 or a P-3?