So much for Limonov’s recent hysterics about Russia, Pakistan and India…
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Looking at how US moves in Ukraine, Syria and South China Sea have been effectively blocked at the moment, I am wondering if US will use India to open a new front in its war on the world.
Reading Andrew Korybko’s articles on India at Katehon and looking up Hinduvta sites, it does seem there is plenty of raw material here for the US to work with. Divide and conquer.
Another thought on China Pakistan Syria. It seems that China is relying on opening up a strategic corridor to the Indian ocean through Pakistan. If China were to play a direct military roll in Syria, its infrastructure investments in Pakistan may be very vulnerable to terrorist attacks.
The Pakistan Development Corridor deal with China has a component of protection required for Pakistan to fulfill. 7000 man force of military to deal with the terrorist threat.
India, as is Pakistan, is a full member in SCO this year. Thus, anti-terror is central to SCO cooperation. India will not get in the way of China in its concerns over Uyghurs fighting in Syria.
In fact, India should be asking for anti-terror help from SCO.
What are the ties if any between islamic/sunni terrorist in Syria and those in Pakistan? I take it they would be linked in some way? Reading the various jihadist twitter accounts as they come and go, I see a lot about international mujahideen fighting in Syria.
This is separate to my thoughts on which way India may or may not be heading. I don’t see India working with any of these terrorist groups.
The Islamist agenda in Pakistan is exactly the same as the Islamist agenda in Syria. It is only India which occupies Pakistan’s attention to such an extent that they can’t interfere in any meaningful fashion in Syria.
India is Hindu, India is not Muslim. India will co-operate with anyone if its to the detriment of Muslims. India hates Muslims, to the extent of being irrationally irrational about Muslims. So India will never ever work with any Muslim terrorist group. Even the Vatican is pro-Muslim when compared to India.
India is predominantly Hindu. But it has lived with Muslims since 1192. Even after partition in 1947, which was done after Muslims demanded a separate homeland on Two Nation Theory (Hindu & Muslims are two nationalities and cannot live together – this was as per Muslim league), India has enough Muslims. Majority of Muslims remained in India & India has probably 2nd highest Muslim population in India.
Yes, there are people who hate Muslims. Especially those Muslims who are Salafists.
No Indian Hindu will ever be a Religious Terrorist. Period.
Yes, there are few Indian Muslims who have joined ISIS … approx 70-80 people out of total population of 1.25 Billion. But No Hindu.
It is not possible for any Hindu to be a Religious terrorist because we (Hindu) accept that God can be reached by any path (religion) and so we respect all religion. BTW, this mentality is constant for all Polytheists. Religious Terrorism is actually exclusively reserved for Monotheists !
Because besides terrorize your small neighbors, your religious nut cases and elites are preoccupied with terrorizing your low caste poor and minorities.
Hi brother …kindly note that muslims in india excluding muslims of kashmir have nothing to do with terrorism in kashmir..kashmiris demand there own country…and they are fighting for there country…islam doesnot teach about seerate kashmir…dont paint everything with one brush…islam never teaches terrorism
Yes and no,
You have a point that India takes Islamic terrorism and Salafist and Deobandi mindset far more seriously than other powers (especially at a theological level), but to characterize India as anti-muslim is not quite accurate: India has great relations with Iran, Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Indonesia, as well as several Arab nations. You will note that both Islamic Bangladesh and Afghanistan sided with India and boycotted the SAARC summit.
What are the chances of India being a Trojan horse for the US inside SCO?
The same chances that China is a Trojan Horse in the BRICS; witness China’s official joining to the IMF’s SDR.
Sorry Jiri,
I should also point out that Pakistan, itself, with it’s plethora of terrorist training camps, pseudo-vassal status to the United States and Britain would be the logical trojan-horse to SCO and Eurasian stability. Even Iran and Afghanistan are fed-up with Pakistan’s instability and terrorism (so is China, but they bite their tongue hoping to build CPEC).
Re: Pakistan has 7000 soldiers to protect CPEC. —> Wrong they have over 14,000 soldiers dedicated to protect only about 3700 chinese workers – this according to China’s CCP’s mouthpiece the Global Times. CPEC is facing increasing opposition in Pakistan itself and is sarcastically refered to as the China Pakistan Economic Colonization project.
Re: India will not get in the way of China in its concerns over Uyghurs fighting in Syria
It seems from your comment that you are ignorant of the fact that it is Pakistani based salafist groups that support training of Uygur terrorists; as an example, Tablighi Jamaat, HuJI, HuM, Jaish-e-Islami along with elements of Jaish-e-Mohammed(JeM) ), which is not fully under the control of the ISI. The Chinese have asked repeatedly of Pakistan to reign in this “ideological” group’s activities, but the Pakistanis have been unable to do so (perhaps due to fear of a violent backlash?). There are othe terrorist groups that are fully controlled by Pakistan’s ISI: LeT (Lashkar-e-Toiyba) is an extension of the ISI, but others are not.
India should stop sponsoring terrorism against the regional countries. These India is one of leading sponsor of terrorism and biggest threat to regional security.
Peter AU, to start with, I read the article by Korybko on Katehon that you were referring to. I am a Hindu Indian-American. With all due respect, just like it is hard for Americans to understand Russian culture and mindset, it is very hard to understand nationalist Hindu Indians’ mindset unless you have been exposed to the culture. I agree with your point on divide and conquer that the US loves to use. However, our fight is justified. Remember, that India and its culture used to be one of the richest in the world. Europeans used to brave the dangerous oceans just for the chance to sail to India with its gold, spices, and ancient knowledge. However, 800 years of constant invasion and divide and conquer by first the Muslims, and then the Portuguese, French, and British completely tore down our once great civilization. Now, the country is but a shadow of its past. Do not blame Hindu nationalists for taking a strong stance on Pakistan. You (Russians) worry about NATO expansion on your borders. How would you feel if for 800 years the foreigners have constantly expanded, taken over large parts of your borders, and now threaten you with nuclear weapons and terrorist attacks? That is what we have faced. These are ancient conflicts, and so do not expect us to remove their pain from our memories so quickly.
My only advice to you and others on this site- BLAME CHINA. It was China who had the chance to partner with India instead of Pakistan for this economic corridor. It was China who was so scared about India attempting to challenge their hegemony over Asia, that they chose the “safe option” Pakistan instead. This indirectly took Pakistan from USA axis into Chinese axis. And it also forced India to partner with the USA because we had been surrounded on all sides by countries who claimed to oppose us- China and Pakistan. China did not have to do this. India and China have common peaceful culture of Hinduism/Buddhism/Confucianism going back thousands of years. It was China who attacked us in a war in the 1970s. It is still China who talk nice but show that they are too greedy and fearful of a strong India. I would have a strong military alliance of BRICS nations any day over India allying with the West. But due to CHINA’s greed, this has not been possible.
“India to partner with the USA”
USA does not have partners.
The US has added 1.3 billion units of cannon fodder to its portfolio.
Going by your comment, my thought that the US may be using India or hinduvta to start a new front against China in its global war may be correct.
Based on the attitudes of certain sectors of the Russian system (Katehon’s board of directors and korybko’s articles) it is wise of India to spread their risks and not be so dependant on Russia. Thanks to this site I have learned that gradually over time, I’m so glad we are not politically correct here.
Do you think it’s helpful to use condescending terms like cannon fodder to refer to the entire Indian population? I support your right to use it, but I wonder, Does this win Russia friends?
Mirror,
Bare in mind that it seems that most posters on this blog are not Russians but people from various parts of the ‘the west’. Their views and cultural outlook will differ from actual Russian people in Russia. Judging from Russians that I have met in the flesh, they are very open and non-biased people. The people in the west – regardless of racial background – share the biases of the wests’s historical narrative. My own family of Indians share these biases to a greater or lesser degree and I suspect I still have alot to learn and – as Claude Alvares would say – de-colonise. Eventually with the rise of east, south-east and south Asia – and Iran – we will see a return to historical norms and an end of this cultural/racial superiority nonsense that ‘the west’ has been pushing for so long.
First of all, Chinese consider Pakistan as the only true friend since beginning. I was told Pakistan air line was the only airline allowed to land in Beijing in 70s. That is long before time line of your laughable arguments.
Let’s see what India had done to China:
Occupy south Tibet.
Support Dali Lama to undermine China
Invading Tibet to start 1962 war.
The government and MSM hide the truth of war, and fueling the hatred of China.
Yes, by all those count, India really is a true friend of China. Yes, Chinese are scared of India.
You have poisoned the well, only has yourself to blame. Your fundamentalist government only make you so much more out of touch with reality, but it is perfect fine with the rest of world. Too bad Kashmirs have to bare your brutality.
You forgot to mention the support for the Khampas in collaboration with the CIA.
Read your comments one more time, it remind me another thing that Indian fundamentalists good at: paint black to white, day to night.
Trolls are good at that too.
Not difficult to understand India (Indian government and elites).
They are still stuck in the British Raj and believe wholeheartedly that they are its true inheritors.
To coin a phrase- they are more royalist than the king.
Maybe this is true.
Although India does seem to be the target for some significant hostility. Which I guess they asked for because they are so authoritarian and fundamental? Or maybe that’s just the Hindu part of the population?
I do find some of the hostility seems a bit radical, excessive. And well-funded, or supported.
You know, I may be nit-picking, but sometimes India’s opposition also seem organised. So to me, I see part of an opposition that is offended by authoritarian, fundamental Indian Hindu society, expresses itself in excessive ways, appears to be well-funded or supported and is organised.That’s just my observations.
Thank you S113, anti India sentiment doth indeed abound much too much in the comments section all the time.
I’m uncertain if its the Chinese guys or the Pakistani guys who are so organized, maybe its the minority Muslim guys in India venting their minority, inconsequential opinions. Certainly there are more Indians who speak English than Chinese who speak English.
But all the drama detracts from healthy, informative debate and understanding about matters concerning India.
I guess Indian society could just lighten up, and then others might say more flattering things about them? Kids just wanna party, after all, I guess?
Or maybe for the right price, someone could step in and save Indian society from the menace they are facing? Protection?
“Or maybe for the right price, someone could step in and save Indian society from the menace they are facing? Protection?”
Looks to be something along that line. For those that are anti Muslim, not just certain sects or branches but anti Muslim period, Muslim terror attacks in India will only further their cause.
combine that with pro US and pro Israel sentiments…
Russia exposed the US war on terror for what it was.
With oppression against Muslims in India, it will be long night of conflicts.
Modi’s Hindu fundamentalists sure seems spoil for a fight with everyone, from blockade right after 8.1 earth quick in Nepal, to killing and blinding of unarmed youth in Kashmir, or to hacking people to death for eating beef.
I wonder who is the source of terror, who is fighting the terror?!
and I also repeat your sentiment: “combine that with pro US and pro Israel sentiments…”
Nepal oppresses Muslims, China oppresses Muslims, Pakistan oppresses Muslims (Shia), Pakistan oppresses Christians and puts teenage Christian girls in jail for blasphemy, the state officially and legally states the primacy of Islam in their constitution just like Israel states the primacy of Judaism in the Israeli constitution. it is legal to discriminate against religious minorities in Pakistan, in India it is not.
I said I would stay out of this, but I’m diving in again. :-) My perspective:
There is no oppression of Muslims in India. There are a multitude of social, economic, and political problems, which we in the West seem only capable to see as “oppression”. This is a blatant misperception, catering to Western sentimentality. It’s not a Black Lives Matter situation, but since westerners are familiar with that, this is what we are given.
I think Hindutva may be Indian elites dueling with globalist elites for the same crowd. I don’t think we should assume that just because a Color Revolution seems to be in the works, that India’s elites are not behind it. This may be how the elites in India are defending the nation against foreign invasion/occupation. 1.2 billion is a lot of hearts and minds to ” control”, oversee (even with the formidable administrative skills of certain segments of Indian society!) Again, India is not a Western nation, and is under no requirement to adhere to the Supreme High Council of Western Opinion that we in the West adhere to. :-) A few decades of propaganda/mind control/psyops and we all behave like there is some “Western freedoms” overseeer, approving or disapproving of our choices. India has a completely separate structure. So we could be witnessing a Soros et al vs. Modi et al, dynamic.
A super heavyweight match, indeed! Another area of misperception is the principle of non-violence, and the example of Ghandi. If we in the West think that the Indian elites are going to stop eating and wear less clothing in response to globalist aggression, we are kidding ourselves. They will defend the dharm. 2016 is a new time, new challenges, new responses.
I appreciate your replies/opinions S113. Other than how India affects the outside world and geo-politics, I have no opinion on what india should or should not be doing, or organising itself domestically. That is up to India.
Not being able to search or read Sanskrit is limiting so I have to judge India on what it is actually doing in geo-politics, and as hindutva seems to be the ideology of the current leadership, what I can find about how it positions itself in the world on pro hindutva English language sites.
@S113
Finally Somebody who seems to be getting it!
Although you’re not fully there (who is?), you seem to be getting the gist of it; you’ve done the best job of mapping out the problem so far.
Excellent post.
A huge portion of those critics and commenters based out of the West are speaking from an ethnocentric, western-cultural-centric point of view (without realizing it) and (objectively to us) come across spewing double-standards. In addition, they often base their judgments on already tainted (earlier Western MSM) sources that helped form their opinions and are now internalized and assumed to be true by them.
I can clearly see this problem is resolving itself (or at least becoming irrelevant), because India is rising very rapidly and it’s young population English lang capable is very assertive about their identity, unlike their passive “gandhian/socialist” previous generation. However, it is nice to see that there are some “outsiders”, such as yourself, that have managed to transcend the filter of your own culture to see things in a relatively more objective manner.
Once again an excellent comment by you and an insightful framework by which to understand Indians (and other cultures).
India tends to keep to herself, and antagonizes only Pakistan and Kashmir. China has an international presence, and antagonizes everyone in Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, etc. I therefore wonder why so much noise is being made about the little that India gets up to when it is China that is causing the biggest raucous?
India is the biggest threat to China, because of its similar population, but is lagging behind economically and militarily. However, if India were to team up with Vietnam, Malaysia, etc, interesting possibilities exist. India hasn’t even joined the US camp yet, and hopefully never will. Hopefully India remains neutral forever, because India provides a useful counter weight against Chinese over-exuberance. Balance is always a good thing.
I trust Russia emphatically, but I don’t trust China yet. I’m neutral about India so far.
Indians will do the wrong thing as they think they are global players.
This narrative is false and is in the same, copy and paste vein as many pro american articles in the western media- such a take could equally be written by a Croat talking about why is he pro USA NATO against Serbia.
Such and such a person claims to be a Nationalist from Countrystan. Countrystan has been at war with Neighborstan for hundreds of years, Neighbourstanis are the eternal enemy of Countrystan. China/Russia/Communists supported Neighborstan. USA gives big money to use Countrystan as a buffer state. Therefore even though I hate USA and is culture, we have no alternative than to partner them.. The logic of USA geopolitics. Eternal War.
Wheras Eurasia uses instittions like SCO, and win win negotiation. co operation to resolve disputes, like Duterte wants to with China.
Hi brother me tòo from india..why are hindu nationalists target muslims and christians of india…why are they treating them as outsiders…no doubt india had a very rich culture and knowledge in the past….how did the conqueres destroy that culture….no conquerer destroyed its culture ….it is only that a gòod and best cultural values had prevailed over the culture of india…
In the interests of full disclosure I am a Son of the Indus (a.k.a Pakistani).
Most Muslims in the Indian Subcontinent are natives who converted to Islam. A minority are of foreign descent and many of them undertook mixed marriages with the natives of the subcontinent.
(It is rather unfortunate that many Muslims refuse to accept this as they see this as an insult)
Basically what I am trying to say is that the vast majority of Muslims in the Subcontinent are as much natives to it as are the followers of Ramdev.
Also the Subcontient has always been divided: it has been full of states making alliances and fighting each other and at times having an outsider dominate it. The Indian Subcontinent is/was a bit like the European Subcontient. A Briton and an Italian are closer to each other than a Pukhtoon and a Tamil.
From what I read, the bombings in Pakistan are more India RAW related which supports both of your points. India is actively undermined CPEC by inciting and supporting terror in Balochistan. So far. I have not see US taking any action it self.
According to MKB’s latest article, “The bottom line is, Pakistan has a ‘thinking’ army leadership. The current leadership is completely sold out on the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor. The military’s priority is internal security.”
I have not read anything about Pakistan’s involvement in Syria, or middle east in general. I do how ever read about they are trying to help Iran and Saudi defuse the situation between them. They have their handful in Afghanistan and consistent threat of war from India.
From what I read, their people are very grounded in reality and are no lunatic extremists. They are paying heavy price for invasions in Afghanistan, and deal with a hostile neighbor that is consistently threat her existence. All consider, they are holding up quite well.
Peter AU,
Note the strong and unambiguous title that Saker gave to this video clip (an Indian CNN-18 clip that has gone viral in Pakistan and India). A huge slap in the face of Pakistan supporting terrorists. Even China’s state broadcaster CCTV English has supported the Indian narrative showing evidence that India did hit Pakistani terrorists very hard and also killed Pakistani army regular soldiers that were aiding and abetting the terrorists. I’ll post the link to the CCTV clip later.
Andrea Korybko’s article is without credibility and thanks to these unambiguous statements by the Russian Ambassador, proven wrong. The facts aren’t going to change because of personal biases and belief-systems. Andre’s analyses have gone down the black hole of conjecture and projections based on faulty source material.
I absolutely loved the clear, very blunt, strong and lucid statement by the Russian Ambassador. Clearly, he understands India better than a few increasingly irrelevant and frustrated India-Phobic trolls that are trying to turn the truth on it’s head and exposing their lack of moral or -intellectual fiber.
The ambassador’s words and Putin’s earlier condemnation of Pakistan carry far more wait than any internet commenter: if people are really interested in BRICS to work they need to stop spreading animus and stoking divisions by re-gurgitating looney-left propaganda memes hatched in the Anglo-Saxon media and intelligence complex during the 1990s to present:
Hindutva ROFL!, Hindu Nationalism (while Russian nationalism is OK) LOL!, Modi is Hitler (as moronic a statement as Putin is Hitler), and other nonsense.
@ Mirror
Putin has constantly referred to US as “our partners”.
What I am looking at is not this particular incident but where India is headed geo-politically.
India is no longer a non aligned state. It has entered into a strategic alliance with the US and also seems to have joined with the US to “fight terrorism”.
It has allowed US forces into its country and has signed an agreement to share military bases with the US. This is the bottom line. All else is fluff and filler.
@Peter AU
India is no longer a non aligned state. It has entered into a strategic alliance with the US and also seems to have joined with the US to “fight terrorism”.
That is your opinion it is not fact. It is not analysis because it jumps to a conclusion based on no evidence. But you are entitled to your opinion, clearly we don’t see any evidence that the Russian State agrees with your conclusion -they continue to supply strategic technologies to India (nuclear submarine know-how), it would be odd of Russia to do so with a “Strategic Ally of the United States”. One would have to assume that Putin is stupid and we here on the internet are smarter than him.
It has allowed US forces into its country and has signed an agreement to share military bases with the US.This is the bottom line.
That statement is factually incorrect on its own. Do the research and go look at what the actual terms of LEMOA are. You are following the zero-sum logic of the Bush-Jr Regime.
All else is fluff and filler.
In your opinion. And you are entitled to it. But it precludes you as being as an objective interlocutor on this subject.
Over on Fort Russ, Ruslan Ostashko’s latest commentary deals with the John Kerry leaked communication with Syrian “opposition”.
Ostashko says (same as The Saker says), “We are witnessing a very intense conflict between the CIA and Pentagon, or, if you wish, between the moderate and radical parts of the American elite.”
Do you suppose this ongoing India/US/Pakistani terrorist saga is part of this? Specifically, I am wondering if the GoI (a new acronym I just learned, Govt of India) is attempting to align itself with the moderates, while defending/protecting itself from the machinations of the radicals?
The conflict is only at the tactical level.
The strategy remains unchanged.
So, don’t be too hopeful.
No hope. Just a question looking critically at the situation. The subject is not my emotions, thank you. :-)
I was just reading MK Bhadrakumar’s latest post, “Russia, Pakistan make nice. Amen.” It made me wonder if Moscow pulled a bit of a face plant with this one. (To be fair, they are kind of distracted with preventing WWIII from starting in Syria and all)
Maybe India is so hard to read for them too, at times. I’ve been there. More than once. It’s humbling, but one recovers in time. :-) I love India, sincerely, and the Sanathana Dharma.
I’m sure the Foreign Ministry of Russia will make the necessary repairs quickly and effectively. Perhaps it’s unrealistic to expect this evolution from unipolar to multipolar world to progress without some very turbulent moments.
Anyway, I wish God’s grace to all involved, in India, Pakistan, Russia, China, the US.
Read the last two lines of the article.
The author is mightily pissed off with Russia. Very uncharacteristic of him but when push comes to shove people tend to show their real selves.
Bhadrakumar must be under tremendous pressure. He is not published in mainstream media in India. But this time his article was picked up by a newspaper in punjab a state on the border of Pakistan. The s*** hit the roof so to say. He stood out like a sore thumb. To top it Modi was at a party confab in the southern state of kerala trying to look statesman like. Bhadrakumar happens to be a native of that state. Local media must know Bhadrakumar and with national media present in kerala the spotlight turned on him.
Make no mistake about the abrasive style of Modi govts functioning. It is extremely detail oriented. Whenever modi visits a city Even regional HR heads of large companies receive direct calls from PM’s Office asking for information on mood of employees and requesting his agenda be put up to employees and they participate in social media support and party insiders compete the job of putting the ordinary citizen on alert that they are under watch and they better fall in line with the govt on the most trival of matters. This level of outreach is unprecedented in Indian history. Most people who are at receiving end of it are totally psyched. Imagine the HR manager of one of the many offices of the company recipes an call on his personal phone at 11 in the night from PM’Office and asked to send out emails to employees before modi arrives next morning in the city taking permission of his bosses is left up to him!! I’m sure many of the public personalities giving it statements on political matters are also contacted and consent manufactured.
Bhadhrakumar is irrelevant in India and his predictions increasing inaccurate.
@S113
Re: Joint Russia-Pakistani “anti-terror” military exercises.
Here’s my take on the situation:
-These exercises were arranged some time back, probably an attempt by Russia to start to build influence and relations with Pakistan in light of moving the SCO mandate forward.
-The Russians were also hoping to gather intelligence on Pakistani military, ISI, their training methods and readiness.
-The Russian commandos are in the pipeline when the Pakistani launch a series of terrorist infiltrations; one gets thru, and unfortunartely, gets lucky and kills a lot of Indian soldier in their sleep.
-Russians don’t fully understand how bad the situation is going to become.
-Russian troops in Pakistan, somebody in Russia thinks it’s more important to meet SCO milestones than to look at the bigger picture.
-Russia goes ahead with exercises but is pissed off at Pakistani double-crossing for putting them in tight a situation with the Indians. It is understandable for Russia to go forward with these exercises, at minimum, from an intelligence gathering perspective (they may have conveyed the same to India).
-Indian Foreign Ministry understand that the Russians have been setup as a prop and double-crossed by the Pakistanis and don’t take the bait of letting this incident damage Indo-Russian relations. (Probably not too unhappy that Russia got to experience 1st hand the reliability of the Pakistanis; Pakistan has burned the US this way too).
-Russia waits til all their commandos are out of Pakistan and then allows the Russian ambassador to do damage control and let the world know just what they really think about Pakistan. I think the ambassador’s extra-blunt and strong worded statements also reflect Russian anger of having been put on the spot by the Pakistani establishment’s stupidity.
Mirror, thanks for all your posts! What you say here makes a lot of sense. The only question I have is if Russia mistakenly questioned India’s stance or loyalty – and learned the hard way that India has not changed. This Russian administration does seem a bit Eurocentric, and has spent a year completely absorbed with the Empire, via Syria! A year absorbed in European and Empire affairs could create the conditions for misunderstanding India. Maybe the Russians drew an incorrect conclusion about India’s part in global events. It’s been corrected, though, as you note, and it seems India-Russia relations are closer now because of it.
Aside from this, Mirror, my opinion is that it is complete insanity of the Western/global elites to attempt to possess India. They will lose. India is not Yemen – and they’re losing in Yemen. I don’t know any specifics, but I “know” that the Empire’s Indian adventure will not end well for them.
Thank you, sincerely likewise to your posts. Your instinct about India is likely to bear out. India is very complex and it’s nationalist leadership is brimming with very cunning and strategic-thinking individuals.
Bless you.
Another delightful Russian – thanks so much Saker, for all you do for us ! I’m so proud to be a part of this strong community.
The questions of the journalist are so gullible! And that is the state of the whole Indian media. India aspires to be a super power but they pick fights with Pakistan!
Why don’t we analyze this as a false flag! After all this blogs questions any similar events.
India is trying to take away the attention from the atrocities she is committing against Kashmiris and not following the UN resolutions. I mention UN because the contemporary Russia is trying to be all legal legal and so goes by UN charter etc etc.
If you hear carefully the diplomats answers are after all diplomatic…He also knows how the stupid Indian media will go berserk if he is not a little bit realistic and so he is sounding “a bit” jingoistic! I mean why to get into an unnecessary issues!
Many more points but publishing of this interview makes this blog look like more mainstream :(.
Peace…
That is how to make it work in India, play up their ego.
From what I read, Kashmir has passed point of no return. It is not Pakistani threw the rocks, and protesting, it is Kashmir youth, bearing the blunt of arrests, death, and blinding protesting. I wonder, what all those people inside Pakistan, and Afghanistan feel seeing their Muslim brothers suffering in Kashmir?
Can I compare it to the feeling of Russians had for their orthodox brothers in Serbia war, and East Ukraine conflict?
The vast majority of Pakistanis consider Kashmiris as countrymen even if they don’t have the correct passports. And many Kashmiris (of course not all) reciprocate this sentiment.
P.S. I do not think many in Afghanistan care about the plight of Kashmiris at the hands of the Bharat military.
@TMA
Kashmiris Sunni Muslims are no victims they are victimizers too: the unarmed indigenous Hindu minority of the Kashmir valley were forced out of their homeland of thousands of years due to an Islamic campaign of targeted rape, rape and murder, torture and murder directed at Hindu Kashmiri women and leaders during the 1990s(sponsored by Western intelligence -like Syria today- and their vassal Pakistan). This included threats over loudspeakers in the Kashmiri capital broadcasting “Pandits/Hindus get out”. Between 300,000 to half a million Hindus were forced out of their homes and made refugees in New Delhi.
Kashmir is multiethnic and multi religious; if Muslim Kashmiris elect to separate, then the buddhist regions (Ladakh), Shia regions (gilgit, baltistan, kargil) and the Hindhu regions (Jammu) should also separate from Sunni regions of Kashmirs, leaving a Swiss cheese unsustainable rump republic landlocked and surrounded by India. This is why Kashmir is going stay in multi-religious pluraristic India.
Shia are also Muslims.
Also those Vedic followers who were unjustly kicked out should be allowed to return.
Yes Shia are Muslims, but they have been massacred by the Sunni majority in the past and polls show that the overwhelming percentage 88% would want union with India rather than live as a minority in Pakistan or as a minority in an untenable “independent” Kosovo… err I mean Kashmir.
India’s foreign policy is in a serious mess.
It cannot even deal satisfactorily with neighbours that are way, way smaller than India- Nepal, Bhutan, Maldives, Bangladesh.
@Jiri
I repeat: If India’s relation’s with it’s neighbors was so poor then why did all members of South Asia (except Nepal), in solidarity with India, boycott the SAARC summit to be held in Pakistan?
Bangladesh (Muslim country), Afghanistan (Muslim country), Maldives (Muslim country), Sri Lanka (Buddhist country) and Bhutan all pulled out of SAARC forcing Nepal, the current chair, to cancel it.
The statements from 2 largest muslim countries were particularly supportive of India and cited Pakistan’s support for terrorism as their reason for canceling attending. So much for the stereotype that all Muslim countries support terrorism, they do not, only the ones coddled and protected by the AngloEmpire seem to be fester-beds of salafist terrorism — I wonder why?….
Maybe because they are Indian puppets?
I don’t understand your response, can you clarify?
An amazing stance for a diplomat to take. Very clear condemnation of Pakistan’s actions, very clear statement that Pakistan occupies Indian territory, very clear advice given to India to be glad that Russia is working with Pakistan to bring it into the moderate world.
I don’t quite understand why India is so jealous, so unsure of Russia’s love, so adolescent in its relations with nations. This Russian ambassador speaks enormous wisdom to the ancient and holy land of India, encouraging her to welcome the present reality instead of arguing against it.
Russia is the peacemaker.
Somewhere deep in Russia’s thinking there must surely lie the stark understanding that for a country with such vast borders ranging across the planet, its very best security lies in a world at peace. This way, Russia can be left un-invaded for once. And through Putin’s own common sense, all of Russia’s effort is focused into creating this global peace.
We can only hope she prevails. We the ordinary people of the world could use the break. Surely India, blessed and noble India, could set aside its modern anxieties for the illusion that they are, and try a little harder to help.
“I don’t quite understand why India is so jealous, so unsure of Russia’s love, so adolescent in its relations with nations.”
Adolescent is the perfect word to describe it.
India can’t even manage its relationship with tiny countries like Nepal and Maldives.
Boohoo. That last time I mentioned childishness with regards to both India and China, both ancient cultures, and their relationships with their respective tiny neighbours, my comment got deleted – serves me right :-) But I really enjoyed reading those last 2 lines of the Bhadrakumar article, hilarious!
Here is difference perspective of same event from our very own M K Bhadrakumar toda:
Russia, Pakistan make nice. Amen.
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2016/10/03/russia-pakistan-make-nice-amen/
“In rhythmic gymnastics, Russian diplomats are unbeatable. Russia has a strategic love affair with Iran but that doesn’t stop its diplomats from romancing with Saudi Arabia, the UAE or Israel. Russians call it ‘pragmatism’. Similarly, Azerbaijan-Armenia, China-Vietnam, Uzbekistan-Kyrgyzstan, Iran-Israel – the list of ‘pragmatic engagements’ is very impressive.
Now, after a gap of half a century, Russia is at it again in South Asia, becoming romantic toward Pakistan. We can only hope that Russia is not positioning itself to host another ‘Tashkent summit’.”
…
“The Russian ambassador in New Delhi Alexander Kadakin has spoken supportive of India — 5 days after India’s “surgical strikes” across the Line of Control. I wish Moscow had issued this statement instead of as the embassy’s press release for local publicity. For, in the best traditions of Russian diplomacy, what prevents their ambassador in Islamabad to say much the same quietly to the Pakistani side as well? (Times of India)”
It is easy to blame Pakistan for everything while USSR, US, and India invaded and trying invade there one after other. Does any one learn anything from history of region?
Read the last two lines of the article.
Very disappointed that he wrote them. But it is an indication of how emotions get the better of Indians when it comes to issues related to Pakistan.
Bhadrakumar is normally quite sober when analysing situations and events.
I agree. it was quite surprising.
He rarely wheel off, but he does some time. last time was in his writing India finesses its Afghan policies in atimes where he claimed
“The problem here is that although India does not suffer from ‘Islamophobia’ – unlike Russia or China – Indian security analysts have a closed mind toward Taliban (just as they had toward Mujahideen.) …”
Just from what we read here on this post alone, we know he was wrong.
Muslims, especially uyghurs have their religious rights severely curtailed in China – I believe that’s what Bhadrakumar is referring to. Go look it up. Fathers cannot bring their children to mosque, you have be over 18 to attend. Muslim govt workers are forced to withdraw from Ramadan and Eid. It’s so transparent that Pakistan has no principles that they ignore this for Chinese money.
Dear Saker,
What is your opinion on Russia-Pakistan military drills? Also, what do you think about the conflict in Kashmir?
Hi,
Saker can illuminate us with his ever cool analysis but what I think is that india is “just” one nice customer of major arms manufacturers countries in the world, USA, Russia France etc etc…especially for Russia. I mean why you would upset one loyal customer this just does not make business sense.
However Pakistan is geopolitically more important and Russia knows that. They cannot ignore Pakistan, no surprise Russian troops are there first ever in both countries history. On top Pakistan is also a big buyer of arms how nice it would be that Pakistan buys with IMF loans Russian made SUs…its a win win for Russia!
peace!
I hope your are right. Andrew Korbyko’s analysis (published in katehon.com) on Uri attack vis-a-vis China and Russia is excellent. I hope most Russian political and military analysts share the same thoughts.
Dearest Pakistanis
There exists on this planet a term called BRICS. India is a part of BRICS because India has a population exceeding 1 billion and India has potential. There is no place for a P in BRICS, because that would just be rude.
Yes, Russia is being nice to Pakistan at the moment, Russia is nice to everybody at the moment, Russia is even nice to the USA at the moment. Yes, China is being nice to Pakistan at the moment, but China would like to have an alternative port access through Pakistan, China does not need Pakistanis. China even supplies its own Chinese labour to build things in Pakistan.
Pakistan is irrelevant to everybody on this planet at the moment, were India and Pakistan to go to war right now, no-body is going to be too concerned, unless nuclear weapons are utilized. Pakistan is like a flea next to the elephant of India.
So please stop making noises about India all the time because your opinions are irrelevant. The rest of us on this planet want to better understand the world we live in, not listen to the opinion of inconsequentials.
from a South African
(a part of BRICS, an irrelevant part definitely, but still better off than Brazil, for the moment)
PS: this comment of mine is probably going to do the disappearing act also – BOOHOOO!
An Excellent post by gT.
Yes, Russia is being nice to Pakistan at the moment, Russia is nice to everybody at the moment, Russia is even nice to the USA at the moment. Yes, China is being nice to Pakistan at the moment, but China would like to have an alternative port access through Pakistan, China does not need Pakistanis. China even supplies its own Chinese labour to build things in Pakistan.
Exactly right.
The rest of us on this planet want to better understand the world we live in,
Amen!
I must apologize for assuming that the significant anti-Indian hostility in this blog comes from Pakistan. It is now obvious that the anti-Indian hostility comes from China. That being said, it is however still true that Pakistan is irrelevant in all matters.
I couldn’t understand why so much vitriol is found in the comments when an Indian article appears in the Saker, when, in recent times, there is almost no vitriol in all the other Saker articles at all. And (thanks S113), the vitriol ‘seems a bit radical, excessive … well-funded, or supported … organized’.
But its now obvious, India is the only long term threat to China in the East: not the USA, not Russia, only India.
Hindu nationalism is a grave threat to China, it is disorganized, sporadic and low key at present, but if indeed it reaches the level of ‘German efficiency and discipline’ (thanks J) then the sleeping giant which is India might awaken and then China is not going to have an easy ride in the East at all.
However, having said that, Hindu nationalism is only a good thing if it falls into the Russian camp, not if it falls into the USA camp.
Noah, Just me along. A disgruntle Chinese. One day, over a years ago, stumped on a site, thedeplomat, to be precise, shocked to realize that comments from India were so out of norm vulgar, and full of hatred toward China. It take me a good few months to understand why and accept the fact. So now I am pointing out how ridiculous this thing is.
It is obviously no longer needed. This thread puts any questions regarding nature of what is going on inside of India to rest.
Before I go, I should point out that India should be very afraid of itself, but I doubt you understand.
Great stuff, in future there will just be nice, pleasant debate about India. But then the rest of us might not hear all the intricate details about what’s going on in that corner of the globe, and it might also get too boring. So how about you just write the first part of your comments, which is always relevant, and skip the latter parts of your comments, where you go off on a tangent. And also comment on the Chinese articles, there is no Chinese perspective there at all.
Indians are verbally very brutal, that is their nature. But verbalism is not a threat. Because of all the historic vegetarianism, Indians are not a very physical people; you don’t see many Indians in the Olympics do you? So long as they only antagonize each other (Pakistan is just Indians who are Muslims, for the most part), India is not a problem, even if Hindu Nationalism kicks into high gear.
But yes, China and India, 2 nations with over a billion people each, are a heck of a lot of potential for either good or bad.
@gT
re:
Hindu nationalism is a grave threat to China, it is disorganized, sporadic and low key at present,
I beg to differ it is not disorganized nor sporadic, it is highly organized, persistently growing, accumulative and nearing critical mass (the BJP achieved an outright majority, the opposition parties have recently adopted a dual strategy of pretend saffronism to not alienate the majority while playing votebank politics with minorities. Previously they didn’t even attempt pretend Saffronism).
Also, it is not a grave threat to China, it is a grave threat to attempts to subvert, weaken and Balkanize India by elements in the West. It is the West that initiated the anti-hindutva hysteria and disinfo you see so many reflexively regurgitate here. It is the West that defined the propaganda terms, underlying narrative and the attacks, not China. For the same reasons that they are so hostile to a sovereignist Putin and Russia. Tell me, when’s the last time the “West” genuinely cared about human rights? (LOL!) Yet they use human rights as their argument for opposing Hindu Nationalism. Do you see the inconsistency here? (or rather consistency in using “human rights” as an excuse to demonize any movement they can’t control or that threatens their domination).
then the sleeping giant which is India might awaken and then China is not going to have an easy ride in the East at all.
Again it was not the Hindu Nationalists were Anti-Chinese, it was the secular-socialist Anglo-emulating Congress apparatchiks that fan hostility with China (to cover up Nehru’s bungling and stupidity in dealing with China). The more ideologically leaning members of the BJP are the ones that want to normalize terms with China. However, only on equal terms: the onus is on China to cease hostile actions actions against India, until then India will continue to turn the screws on China’s string of pearls and CPEC projects.
However, having said that, Hindu nationalism is only a good thing if it falls into the Russian camp, not if it falls into the USA camp.
That would be the natural order of things because according to “Hindutva” the Russian people are culturally related to Vedic civilization and are thought of as cultural compatriots and are greatly liked and admired by Indians (there is an affinity, a greater cultural and emotional compatibility with eurAsian Russians) . However, that said, international affairs are not conducted based on emotions, sentimentality and affinity, they are conducted based on national interests. So far geography, geopolitical compatibility, history, common threat perceptions and national interests drive India and Russia together.
@J
re:
Shoot Mirror, I hate to dignify your outrageous claims, but you got me this time.
And yet you did dignify my claims. On a more serious note, I honestly could not understand the rest of your response, could you clarify what you meant? China does a huge volume of business with Israel and doesn’t give a damn about theological issues that are dear to Muslims (the CCP is officially atheist). The only time I’ve ever seen China react angrily with respect to an international religious issue is when a group of Pakistan sponsored Wahabist/Salafist illiterate morons blew-up the Buddha of Bamiyan in Afghanistan. There was a rare angry and stern statement from China when that cultural atrocity was committed, other than that no other international religious issue has been commented on by official Chinese spokesmen.
Hello gT,
I don’t believe you need to apologize, I think your first assumption is more likely to true than your current conclusion. I would not assume someone is Chinese on this posting forum just because they claim they are; as you know the posting here are anonymous and only an IP address (and a session key) is a defining feature.
Try to read between the lines in what I conveyed in my last posting (October 09, 8:12 UTC) in response to a posting by J where he expresses concern about the status of Jerusalem. It’s pretty clear what I am pointing out there.
Also, don’t assume an anti-Indian troll is Pakistani either, a while back a persistent troll here that initially claimed to be a Pakistani later claimed to be disgruntled bitter Nepali (he believed in a conspiracy theory that the Indian government was responsible for the extermination of the Nepali Royal family; I’m not saying that the theory was without merit, just explaining the claimed motivation of that individual).
Your posting regarding people not caring what Pakistanis think is very close to the truth, (it’s politically incorrect, but the truth often is) -it was an excellent posting and hopefully sobering.
It may not matter what the origin of the troll is, what matters is how much they disrupt rational and informative discourse: your observation regarding the persistent anti-India trolling and hostility towards any article Saker posts regarding India is very helpful and true. Hopefully the moderators and Saker will take note.
Looks like WW3 has started and nobody told me.
War in east Ukraine, kept on low burner at the moment. Men and material stashed along Russian border.
War in Yemen. Simmering away, but can be turned up or down as required.
War in Syria. Intensifying but can be turned up or down as required. It seems clear that the US will not permit a political settlement here unless it is entirely on its own terms. Anything else and the war will be turned up or down as required.
South Korea- Reinforcement process underway.
India-Pakistan- Is the US looking to start a war here? This could draw in Iran (which is allied to Russia). If Iran can be embroilled in this plus point for US. Indian PM’s recent statements on Balochistan and cosying up to Saudi could be an indication that Saudis are willing to finance trouble in Balochistan with India doing the dirty work.
Turkey- Will the US leave Turkey in Syria to keep the pot boiling while it concentrates elsewhere? What/who are the Turks bombing in Syria at the moment? How long before they mistakenly bomb Syrian or Russian military?
Looks like this will continue to draw in more and more countries until everyone is fighting someone or the other.
It won’t be possible for any country to stay on the sidelines for too long.
Who will be on which side?
@Jiri
You maybe unaware but Iran is a strategic partner of India (Chhabar port and the North South corridor), plus a military agreement?
Re:
Pakistan- Is the US looking to start a war here? This could draw in Iran (which is allied to Russia). If Iran can be embroilled in this plus point for US. Indian PM’s recent statements on Balochistan and cosying up to Saudi could be an indication that Saudis are willing to finance trouble in Balochistan with India doing the dirty work.
When the US applied international sanctions on Iran as part of UN resolutions re the Iran nuke program, India was the only country that broke the sanctions; paying with gold instead of US dollars. Both China and Russia complied with the sanctions. India gave a lifeline and Iran has not forgotten it.
The Pakistanis have revealed that India has a military agreement with Iran that allows Indian military aircraft to use Iranian airbases in case of an Indo-PAK war.
Also, unlike Pakistan, India does not need Saudi money. What India needs and got from Saudi Arabia was to get the Saudis to cut off financing Pakistani managed salafist terrorism.
There are a large number of trolls that are commenting on these threads involving India. This does not add anything to discussion or information gathering.
The constant reference to foreign and comprador owned Indian English-language news and media as “evidence” of the Indian people and its government turning against Russia (or China for that matter) are ridiculous. Analysts who focus on these paid liars cannot give a true reflection of the relations that India shares with either Russia, the US or China. Trolls of course are trolls and thus are best left unfed.
Student
Yup, and they are pushing conflict and division, as always.
I wonder if a comment involving only name calling, which is otherwise bereft of any substance, is conducive to having a positive and informative discussion.
Jen
The most offensive went to the round file, where they belong; the dividing line was drawn at comments that put information on the table, while those that were just ad hominem insults rejected. Good advice about Trolls, for whom the best response is none at all, although for the most part they are screened and our readers never see them.
Your constructive comments about moderation have been copied and forwarded to all active moderators. Thank you for your input … mod-hs
I think it’s time for a few prominent Indians to write an open letter, similar to the one The Saker, Orlov and Gurevich wrote about provoking Russia:
http://thesaker.is/a-russian-warning/
Western Liberal Supremacists,
While a deep, sincerely-held conviction of one’s superiority may give a person a feeling of invincibility (combined with all that plush, cushy groupthink), the feeling does not equate to the facts on the ground. A really intense feeling of invulnerability is not the same as actually being invulnerable. That usually requires effort. Like “cooperating with others I don’t agree with” effort, and taking practical steps to DE-escalate conflict (which does have the unfortunate side effect of de-escalating super intense emotions too).
There seems to be a battle between traditional Hindu and and Hindutva militarism in India.
I have run onto a few articles like this in my searches.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/hindutva-is-distorting-hinduism-nayantara-sahgal/story-Lux3P5uIK8uDOeo5RuD2pL.html
Peter AU,
I am glad you posted that article from Hindustan Times. Several posters from India have been absolutely stressing the point that English medium reporting coming out of India is 100% biased and devoid of reality to the actual people of India – apart from the so-called ‘1 percenters’ (likely 0.0001% etc.).
The person quoted in that article as an authority on ‘traditional hinduism’ vs ‘hindutva’ is Nayantara Sahgal – the niece of Nehru the British handpicked first Prime Minister of India. She is known to write very derogatory and insulting things about the people of India. She is known to come from a family that has no loyalty to the actual sons and daughers of the soil of India. However, this knowledge may not be available in the English language medium on the internet. Therefore, people like you and I who only read in English will miss these crucial details and take her word as authority rather than a fiercely partisan and biased commentator.
I am sad to say but many sincere people are being fooled by nonsense written about India. Just as many would about China and Russia if we were not informed otherwise.
Excellent research on that entitled member of India’s inbred nouveau “royalty” (Nayantara Sahgal). Did not know about this individual, thanks for that.
Great comments from you.
Hindustan Times itself is a 5th columnist Brown-Englishman outfit so no surprise that they continue to flog misinformation as facts. The fact is that they and their cohorts in the Congress Party elite have stashed away est $2 to 5 Trillion (not a typo) black money in overseas confidential banking locales (Liechtenstein, Switzerland, etc.). No wonder the Western media is so sympathetic to India’s “secular” Brown-Englishmen elite. It’s the Indian Nationalists that are trying to get this money repatriated.
Dear Sir,
If you rely on people like Nayantara Sehgal, Irfan Habib, Romila Thapar, Yechuri, Karat, Aruna Roy, Arundhati Roy etc., then your conclusion will be like that only.
Same Nayantara Sehgal never had a problem when killing of sikhs, some 3000, took place in Delhi after Indira Gandhi died in 1984.
They are the product of either dominant rich families with entitlement or product of Leftist Ideological bastion with deep rooted hatred for anything Indian origin. They have ruled the country by proxy. There are few names like – Lutyens Delhi / IIC groupies who regularly ridicules PM or Presidents of India if he/she is from rural background. They do it with impunity. Even our PM Modi, with huge support base, does not dare touch them.
And BTW, there is are very few fringe groups in Hindutva brigade whose only weapon is shouting and sometimes a Lathi (bamboo stick). But they are very very minor players, fringe and nobody takes them seriously. But to these Sehgal and others, anybody who questions their views are Hindutva-vadi. In India, Hindus cannot run a religious school but other religions can. All Hindu Temples are controlled by Govt … but other religions can run their churches / mosques ! The history of India is distorted beyond belief, all in the favor of invaders. Those who ask anything about this disparity is a Hindutva-vadi !!!
Like if anybody goes by western press, Russia/China are bad countries. Same way, if you believe in the coterie of English press in India, same distortion in understanding will be there.
And BTW, Indians still have faith in Russia as a Trusted ally. Indians are a bit wary about USA. And yes, regarding China – not so warm relationship. Please note that relation with neighbor is different than relation with someone living a mile away.
regards
So any writer giving a critique of Hinduvta or Indian society, had to be in agreement with your thinking, otherwise he or she is a traitor. Please argue the point, not attack the messenger.
Also I find it interesting that all Indian commentators on this blog are fiercely defensive of Hinduvta, and no it is not rationalism, unlike Russian Nationalism, etc. It is a racist ideology that calls for superiority of Hindus much in the same way of Hitler’s Nazis, while also calling for Indian territorial expansion.
Hence we read and hear in Indian media about the various threats received by internationally acclaimed writers and thinkers like Arundhati Roy, who are advised to move to Pakistan.
Looks like the Modi poison is spreading fast through Indian society.
Re;
unlike Russian Nationalism, etc. It is a racist ideology
No it is not racist. It is cultural and it is not religious: when in Rome do as Romans, “you are welcome to stay in Russia if your heart is Russian; you accept our culture as your own and honor our values and our heritage” (v v Putin). You are welcome to stay in India if your heart is Indian; you accept our culture as your own and honor our values and our heritage (Vedic).
But one could argue that blatant double standards are perceived by many as racist and are not being tolerated by the non-English-speaking Indian majority, that is why the Western trained Indian Left (5th columnist) are on the run. If people wish to ignore this reality they are welcome to, but it will not change the truth nor reality nor the cultural renaissance juggernaut that is growing in India.
I have arrived on same conclusion as well. Fortunately, it does not have German efficiency or discipline. So far, it is only a storm in a tea cup,cornered by its own policy.They are obsessed with Pakistan:Why India should watch Pakistan stumble along the road to perdition
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/why-india-should-watch-pakistan-stumble-along-the-road-to-perdition/articleshow/54754783.cms
there is no way their english publications does not reflect their internal condition. The proof are the comments made from India.
China’s Pakistan strategy is in tatters:
-only 6% of CPEC is built out, it is way behind schedule,
-no Chinese State enterprise is touching CPEC; the 2 major Chinese contractors engaged in CPEC have been blacklisted by the World Bank and are even under investigation in China for connections to organized crime and for corruption
-These Chinese entities are imposing usury terms extracting 27% guaranteed return from the Pakistani electricity consumer, only $11Billion is being put up by the Chinese government for Infrastructure, the rest ($24Billion) is for Power plants, half of which is financed by the Pakistanis themselves via loans from international markets of LIBOR plus 4%.
CPEC is very unlikely to happen, China has already de prioritized it according to the CCP mouthpiece “Global Times”.
China’s policy with Nepal has utterly failed with the China friendly government booted from office. Anti-Indian agents and individuals within Nepal are being actively sought and identified. The corrupt high-caste elite in Kathmandu have been deposed and replaced by a more equitable representation of Nepal’s minorities. The few sellouts in Nepal are becoming an endangered species.
India is now expanding trade and military links into South East Asia with its Look East/Act East policy; much to relief of ASEAN who was stuck between Chinese and American hegemony.
Sooner or later (likely later) the realist pro-India-reconciliation faction in the Chinese CCP will gain a voice as the “use Pakistan as a proxy to hurt India” policies fail due Pakistani incompetence, bungling, terrorism and instability.
China is being squeezed in it own region by a resurgent Vietnam (being armed by Russia and egged on by the US).
There is general unity from the Indian Left, middle and so-called right, that Pakistan is a problem, a destabilizing force for the whole region, a failed state, a Western sponsored Salafist incubator, a terrorist state and on its way to Balkanization. And,… as the topic of Saker’s video posting strongly emphasizes: Pakistan is a terrorist sponsoring state and Russia welcomes the Indian surgical strikes against Pakistan -as per official statements from the Russian ambassador. No credible 3rd person or 3rd entity feels sympathy or outrage when a Salafist terrorism sponsoring state is imploding as result of that evil policy.
It isn’t India that is obsessed with Pakistan, it’s bitter and frustrated India-phobes in Pakistan and their misguided regional & international lackeys/allies that are obsessed with India. Much of the Pakistani obsession is driven by Salafist notions of Islamic supremacy, subjugation of Kuffars and Mushkareen, Ghazwa al Hind and the concept of Dar-al-Harb. This is similar to the resentment & obsession of failed Maoist & Royalist ideologues who find themselves marginalized and totally impotent.
I think user gT’s excellent comment summarizes the bottom line.
So CPEC is going to fall. Good for India, Maybe India will not need to Balkanize Pakistan after all, and save a lot of Pakistani’s blood and treasure.
The problem is I do not see Indo-phobia from the comments from people of Pakistan. Pakistanis comments are very reasonable, from sites here on thesakers, to other places. They all saying no war please, not because they afraid one, but because they prefer peace. Indians on the other hand, spoil for a fight. I hope your crazy Hindu fundamentalists realize Pakistan help defeated the world’s two most lethal army in Afghanistan, and their army leadership is far from crazy, or deluded.
I think Modi is doing great job with India, he should be PM for next 100 years, by then he will giver birth to 20 other little Indias in the subcontinent: South Tibet, Assam, Kashmir, tamil nadu, …. the world, especially the small countries in the subcontinent will build giant statues worshiping him for giving their country back.
You people now specialize in wishing people ill and failure, are you sure you are part the culture brought us Buddhism?
I wish you and your country best luck find your way. But if I were you, I would not mess with any Chinese projects in Pakistan.
Your comments on all Indians:
You people now specialize in wishing people ill and failure….
Is contradicted by the ill wish in your second comment:
I think Modi is doing great job with India, he should be PM for next 100 years, by then he will giver birth to 20 other little Indias in the subcontinent:Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Kashmir, tamil Nadu
Yes Modi is doing a great job (so far). Glad you recognize Arunachal Pradesh as a little India, that’s good.
The problem is I do not see Indo-phobia from the comments from people of Pakistan. Pakistanis comments are very reasonable …… Indians on the other hand, spoil for a fight
Your ad hominem by attacking all Indians wrt comments is not supported by evidence.
Can we try to stay on topic now?
So there you have it, according to glory Indian history and learned colonial expertise, time to take on China, Pakistan, Nepal, and who ever next to you. Remember Vietnam and Japan are waiting for you at the other side of the rainbow.
@J
Your post has no correlation with my response to you. I truthfully cannot understand it. Would like to clarify?
Can you address the topic of the Russian ambassadors comments?
A paper on the strategic alliance between India and the US from 2011 and how it will affect Pakistan.
I have copy/pasted a short section on its implications for China.
http://berkeleyjournalofsocialsciences.com/Jan%204.pdf
….. For the most part, strategic stability in South Asia has been
maintained through American involvement; especially after nuclearization. Most of Pakistan’s defense equipment is also either produced by America or obtained through American financial and political assistance. Though China too is one of the significant actors, but United States makes a major contribution towards strengthening the Pakistan’s defense equipment.
In this scenario, a US tilt towards India can put Pakistan’s security interests at stake. The convergence of US interests with India will ultimately push United States to prefer India against Pakistan on each of the political, economic, defense and international fronts. Therefore, Pakistan will lose the prime source of its military equipment as well as political support at international level vis-à-vis India.
As a part of their basic instinct, major Powers always look for opportunities to gain superiority over their rivals to achieve or maintain hegemonic status as their final objective. There are multiple reasons for such behavior, i.e. the anarchic international system, uncertainty about other state’s intentions and survival as the primary objective which encourage states’ intentions to look for power and influence others. Therefore, the system encourages states to look for
opportunities to maximize their power vis-à-vis other states. The India-United States Strategic Partnership is also an expression of such power politics. So far as the study is concerned, It is argued that India United States partnership shall have far reaching implications on Pakistan’s security in a way that emergence of India as counter weight to China shall not only tilt balance of Power between China and United states in favor of USA but it will also tilt power equilibrium in favor of India against Pakistan, if materialized. Therefore, a co-relation does exist between India-US partnership and Pakistan’s security assurances. The study suggests that the Indo-US strategic partnership is an expression of US policy of pre-emption, which is adopted to maintain the unipolar
system intact and ensure the survival of US hegemony in the world. But, if US continue to support India as a part of its grand strategy to counter China, its side effects shall have far reaching implications on Pakistan’s security.
Pakistan’s population 200 million
India’s population 1.3 billion
India does not need anyone’s assistance with regards to Pakistan.
I agree. That maybe the reason for the insane pitch of war against Pakistan from current India, they have people, they have money, they have now finally empire at their side with effective propaganda machine to help paint the black to white on their behave. To be fair, India doing a very effective propaganda themselves… against their own interests.
Thankful for Nuke deterrence.
@ J
Re: Thankful for nuclear deterence
What deterrence? Pakistan’s deterrence has failed.
The Russian Ambassador validated the Indian Strikes and Welcomed them (see the video, it is quite clear).
Pakistan’s nuke blackmail has been called and Pakistani folded. The Pakistani establishment is going hysterical because sooner or later the myth they created in the minds of their public about the Pakistani military being an effective force is going to collapse.
The Paks and their Anglo-master’s are besides themselves at the disaster that they are now facing: they can no longer deter India exacting heavy cuts on their terrorist Hegelian dialectic underling. This is good for the entire world, not just India. Now those crappy rogue states that use “gangs & Bandits [of terrorists]” (as the Russian ambassador characterized them) no longer have impunity, irrespective of their primitive nuclear toys.
As user gT said, nobody cares what Pakistanis think or what an anti-India Nepali thinks, what they want is a resolution to the larger picture of those forces that keep this planet in poverty and chaos.
Pakistan is a potential much more beneficial ally for Russia than india, Pakistan has the biggest army and nuclear detrerrent in the Islamic world. That would send a strong message, and make China and Russia even closer geopolitically. This way there will be a continuous, geopolitically co operating Eurasian political block encompassing Iran, Pakistan, Central Asia China and ending in North Korea.
Eurasianist Traditional Right have said Traditional based societies like Pakistan will be much more suited to alliance with Russia than rapidly liberalising, anglophone, materialist and pro American India
IMHO, Pakistan is the front line or buffer state for Iran and so on. Iran knows it.
Pakistan is China’s only true friend from very beginning, no one can wish that away.
I really wondering how much love lost for SAARC in Pakistan.They should just cut it and join hand with Iranian and people up north. What is use of tangle with some association which do noting to your benefit.
@ J
Often times what one wishes to be true just doesn’t match the facts: Even Iran is fed-up with Pakistan sponsored terrorism, here’s an article from a Pakistani paper “Dawn” (in English):
TEHRAN: Tehran’s interior minister has warned Pakistan that Iranian forces may enter Pakistani and Afghan territory to release border guards reported to have been seized by a [Pakistan sponsored terrorist] group.
The Iranians threatened to invade/commando-strike within Pakistan to free their people from a Pakistan sponsored terrorist group. Here’s the article: http://www.dawn.com/news/1087647
Here are more details:http://tribune.com.pk/story/672867/iran-threatens-to-send-forces-into-pakistan-to-free-abducted-border-guards/
“If Pakistan doesn’t take the needed steps to fight against the terrorist groups, we will send our forces into Pakistani soil. We will not wait for this country,” Iranian Interior Minister Abdolreza Rahmani-Fazli was quoted as telling the semi-official Mehr news agency.
Wow. Are they talking about Baluchistan? Who is supporting terror in Baluchistan? Are you sure it is Pakistan not Indian? Last I read Iranians are thrilled with Indians fancy handy work in Baluchistan. The Chinese and died Chinese engineers family are loving Indians so much for liberating their countrymen and love ones from their lives too.
I think Chinese are totally ungrateful for not giving CPCE like projects to a very entitled exceptional India.
Dearest dear J,
Obviously they are talking about Pakistan. ROFL!!! Both Pakistani newspapers are openly admitting that these terrorist groups are Sunni extremist groups; Iran says they are funded by ISI. Do go read the Pakistani links rather than posting responses that are completely unrelated to the topic.
Some laughable nuke deterrence by Pakistan: even non-nuclear Iran was not deterred from invading failed state Pakistan.
So Pakistan is a pariah with everyone: Iran, Afghanistan, India, Bhutan, Nepal, Bangladesh, and Sri-Lanka. Pakistan doesn’t trust China; China doesn’t trust Pakistan. China is likely to dump Pakistan in the future, Pakistan is likely to Balkanize and die within a decade. Nepal will be solidly locked into the Indian grid and the various minorities in that country will ensure that the treacherous opportunists in the Nepali elite (royalists and power-hungry Kathmandu Brahmins-Kshatriyas-MoneyOligarches) are kept in check with a more equitable sharing of power. And Sri Lanka will continue to grow closer to India.
As the Indian economy grows exponentially, the greater it’s attraction to its neighbors; too bad for those that don’t like this outcome, but like user gT so eloquently put it: they are like a flea on the Indian Elephant.
Since India is so great, and has all the friends in the world, why do you need to obsess with Pakistan and China? Why do you care?
@J
re:
why do you need to obsess with Pakistan and China?
ad hominem sentence removed …Please keep to topic …. mod-hs
Regarding talking about Pakistan, the topic here was the Russian ambassadors very strong condemnation of Pakistan and his open support of Indian punitive strikes against that failed state and it’s cultivated terrorists. If you were paying attention to the actual topic of Sakers posting you wouldn’t ask why I am discussing Pakistan, but going off topic is something you are guilty of not me.
Dear Moderator-hs
This Indophobic troll “J’ asked me a direct question you should allow me to answer that question directly.
He asked me: “why do you care?” my retort was “why do you care?” the same words he used yet my post was censored.
The goal that we are striving for in the comments is
1. Discussion of the issues of the day
2. Discuss the analysis and articles that are posted
It is not to trash and have personal disagreements with other commentators. Comments which move from discussion to attack will not be published. mod-hs
Regarding SAARC, Pakistan has been completely isolated in its own region; Pakistan was desperate to host SAARC and now their former friends: Afghanistan and Sri Lanka have ostracised them along with Nepal. Pakistan and it’s misguided supporters are feeling very humiliated and frustrated. Pakistan has no economic association with Iran and is despised by the Iranian leadership for being a Western and Salafist proxy. The rational people in the Pakistani establishment are expressing open concern that they feel exposed that they have put all their eggs in the Chinese basket: What if China ditches us? They ask, “What are our options?”.
Here’s are links from Pakistani media discussing just that (enjoy it it’s quite funny):
For those of you who don’t speak Urdu or Hindi, (I have done some ad-hoc translations of parts this Urdu discussion), also there is enough English used in the audio to pickup what the speaker is talking about.
Here are Pakistanis analysts expressing real anxiety in Urdu & English about being solely dependent on China; for English speakers forward to: 0:38 where the panelist reveals that Pakistan is giving away land (Zameen) “free of cost”,
@(0:50) “How can Shabaz Sharif say that he can give away our (taxpayers) land free of cost to China?,
@(1:10) “How can we give State land to Chinese as a free gift? I’m telling you, we are going overboard with the Chinese.”, (1:18) “In 20 years you see how bad our situation will be with be [if this continues]”,
@(1:44) “If the Chinese become land owners in this country, we won’t be able to get rid of them…this [giving permanent land title to Chinese companies] is a ‘very dangerous game’ Shabaz Sharif is playing…”
@(3:00) minutes to hear: “Vy all our eggs in the same…in one Chinese Basket?!!”;
@(3:32) the host asks, in Urdu: “…we have a complete tilt to China …@(3:35) “why don’t we keep diversity in our foreign relations: (response from the panelists:”Exactly!” in English) also forward to
@(3:56) minutes Hear the real fault lines in Pakistan. “Is Punjab only Pakistan? Why only Punjab [gets to send a delagation to china],Why not Kashmir and Pakhtoon region, why not Baluchistan, ….”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAijNuk08Jw
Here is General Pervez Musharraf (yesterday or 2 days ago) admitting that Pakistan is isolated and becoming a “losing-end” country (he uses that English word @1:23).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ki9RqG0UAg
That is the reality of Pakistan and CPEC not the idealized theory.
It is good to see Russia is being nice to Pakistan and again Russian Ambassador supporting India about post Uri incident.
It appears that Russia and its supporters have forgotten 1979. In 1979, Zbigniew Brzezinski laid a trap for USSR in Afghanistan by involving Pakistan. Pakistan prepared Taliban offensive in Afghanistan and USSR was forced to send its Red Army. USSR could not walk out of the trap. Along with squeeze on Crude price (the bread earning export for USSR then), it got destroyed gradually.
The same process created the Islamic Terrorism in 20th-21st century. The ISIS / Boko Haram / Al Nusra are the similar things, same Sunni drives, and probably draws inspiration from the Taliban experiment.
And now supporters of Russia sees Pakistan as a friend ! Memory is short sometimes.
Well I hope the people that the “I just know India” are right and I am wrong. Would make life much easier.
Currently the ruling party of India and their ideology is solidly pro US as confirmed by therealestg9 at 11.33 utc, which makes things a bit confusing.
@ Peter AU
Currently the ruling party of India and their ideology is solidly pro US
In our your sole opinion. You are now basing a firm conclusion based solely on a normal comment posted by user therealestg9.
as confirmed by therealestg9 at 11.33 utc,
Is this analysis?
Ruling party has just down evangelical (Protestant & Liberal) NGOS by the 1000s, restarted deals with France, Israel & Russia while tearing down PRO-USA Marxist Lobbies & cut deals for Nuclear Reactors with Japan, Russia & France.
The Logistics Deal is more to placate the American populace as India will be a frontline state against China Yes.
Why should India not pursue its interest against a China which has armed Pakistan with Nukes?
Why should India not play double games against a USA that invaded it to prevent the halting of the 1971 Genocide of Non Muslims in Bangaldesh?
You forget that Politics is a Dirty Game.
Russians are our friends, that relationship is not going anywhere.
Media is just very powerful but the people-people ties between these two civilizations are much too strong for CNN-IBN or NDTV to break so easily. :)
Jai Hind||
I don’t have enough knowledge to form an opinion one way or the other on this, so I’m going to ask the questions.
Korybko wrote a follow up on Katehon to his previous piece. In it, he lays the blame for India-Russia tensions on 1) outdated Soviet-era diplomats, with wildly romantic ideals from the 70’s about India, and 2) on India, whose guilt is demonstrated on the basis that they are willing to work with the US, and even form agreements with the US.
Without knowing the truth, my inclination is to trust Bhadrakumar’s perspective because he has shown the ability to be brutally candid in his criticisms of his own government. I find myself questioning whether Korybko is able to accept that the Kremlin might make mistakes sometimes. Since Bhadrakumar is so critical of the Indian government, I am inclined to believe him if he says that Moscow is at fault in this one. Again, I don’t know what the truth is, but if Bhadrakumar had evidence that the Indian government was ruining it’s relationship with Russia, he would shout it out loud in very explicit terms.
So have we reached a point in global affairs where any formal dealings with the US makes a nation guilty of vassal status and a traitor to the unfolding of a multipolar world order?
If I follow Korybko’s line of reasoning, is he suggesting that India is a traitor unless it accepts vassal status to the Russia-China strategic alliance? If the Kremlin cannot be held at fault, then this would definitely be the case.
So is no other country permitted to have an equal viewpoint to the one held by Russia-China or the US? This really is a Cold War then isn’t it? And India is getting “blame the messenger” treatment for not walking politely within the boundaries?
I have read Bhadrakumar in the past and thought him a reasonable analyst.
Reading your linked article above, I will just pull these couple of sentences to see if he is an unbiased analyst.
Notwithstanding what Ambassador Kadakin said, the Russian state propaganda TV network, RT, which western countries regard as Kremlin-funded, carried only last week a triumphalist piece on the on-going Russian-Pakistani military exercises.
slightly vulgar sentence removed -mod-hs
Peter, it’s time to raise the white flag. SunTze said, of 36 strategies, walk away is the top strategy. Self-preservation here. You just can not argue with (il)logic.
You just can not argue with (il)logic.
You are probably right J. Though white flag is out. Time to just walk away.
@ HS
For this discussion the wording of an article that is quoted for for defence of an argument or debate may be important.
It was commenter J that linked the Bhadrakumar article.
http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakumar/2016/10/03/russia-pakistan-make-nice-amen/
Perhaps copy and paste the article in full will dilute the offensive sections? No bold this time.
Russia, Pakistan make nice. Amen.
In rhythmic gymnastics, Russian diplomats are unbeatable. Russia has a strategic love affair with Iran but that doesn’t stop its diplomats from romancing with Saudi Arabia, the UAE or Israel. Russians call it ‘pragmatism’. Similarly, Azerbaijan-Armenia, China-Vietnam, Uzbekistan-Kyrgyzstan, Iran-Israel – the list of ‘pragmatic engagements’ is very impressive.
Now, after a gap of half a century, Russia is at it again in South Asia, becoming romantic toward Pakistan. We can only hope that Russia is not positioning itself to host another ‘Tashkent summit’.
The Indian government has done the right thing by ignoring the ongoing Russia-Pakistan military exercises. Moscow probably expected that Delhi will demand exclusive friendship. But then, we do not want a post-Soviet Russian mediation in our disputes with Pakistan.
The government’s coolness has paid off. The Russian ambassador in New Delhi Alexander Kadakin has spoken supportive of India — 5 days after India’s “surgical strikes” across the Line of Control. I wish Moscow had issued this statement instead of as the embassy’s press release for local publicity. For, in the best traditions of Russian diplomacy, what prevents their ambassador in Islamabad to say much the same quietly to the Pakistani side as well? (Times of India)
Post-Soviet Russia is a ‘de-ideologized’ state. Russia may have feared that incurring India’s displeasure will not be in its business interests. Moscow could be hoping to wrap up some arms deals during President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India in mid-October. Of course, selling weapons abroad is a matter of life and death for Russian economy, which is spluttering under western sanctions.
The Indian market is a highly lucrative one for Russians because the transactions take place in total secrecy between the two bureaucracies and political elites. They are opaque transactions and the pricing of Russian weaponry is arbitrary. Over the decades Russians have looked beyond the Congress Party and cultivated the range of Indian elites – from RSS to Samajwadi Party.
Indeed, what are the Russians really upto in South Asia? One can never quite be sure. Notwithstanding what Ambassador Kadakin said, the Russian state propaganda TV network, RT, which western countries regard as Kremlin-funded, carried only last week a triumphalist piece on the on-going Russian-Pakistani military exercises. Presumably, it was addressed to the Pakistanis.
The commentary boasted that this is a “historic moment” insofar as Russian army is exercising with a former “cold war rival”. Factually, it is correct. Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence had bled the Red Army white in the eighties and driven it away across the Amu Darya. But Moscow finds it expedient to put that humiliating experience behind.
The RT commentary claims that the joint exercises between the two militaries signify “a shift towards closer Russo-Pakistani relations.” It then speaks of Russia and Pakistan’s shared “desire to fight militant groups on their territory”. Of course, the commentary admits that Russia hopes to make some fast buck by selling weapons to Pakistan as well.
What takes the breath away is the report’s ending:
The war games come at a time of renewed tension between Pakistan and India, a long-term Russian ally, over the disputed province of Kashmir. However, the exercises are being held far from the contested areas. (RT)
This is sheer sophistry. The plain truth is that the Russian Defence Ministry had originally announced in Moscow that the exercises in Pakistan would be partly held in Gilgit. Probably, they developed cold feet later, realizing it might be too much for the Indians to lump. So, they quietly dropped Gilgit. Oh, these impossible Russians! No wonder, Barack Obama turned grey dealing with the Kremlin over Ukraine and Syria.
To my mind, Russians and Pakistanis are made for each other. It will be fun to watch how they mate while also fingering each other.
What have I been saying about Badrakumar all along? –> he is increasingly out of touch and his above quoted comments validate my view that his analysis doesn’t deserve the level of credibility that so many here have attributed to him in the past.
This is not a black and white assessment of his work, just an indicator that one should assess his articles with a critical eye.
He is not wrong that Russian diplomacy can play games (ask the poor Iranians), but his anger is unhelpful.
Peter AU, you are absolutely correct. Clearly biased comment. My interpretation of that entire article is that Bhadrakumar believes that India caught Russia in a diplomatic gaffe, and believes that India should demand some concessions from Russia. I thought that he is talking tough because he does not want the Indian government to let Russia off the hook too easily. I get the feeling that Russia very rarely gets caught in a slip-up like this.
So my comments were made based on this interpretation – which is totally subjective by me. The primary reason why I believe Bhadrakumar is because he is so critical of the government of India if he thinks they have done something wrong. It appears he is equally critical of the Russian government too, if he believes they took a wrong step!
I raised this whole conversation for purely subjective reasons too. Because of my own experience, I know how challenging it can be to respond to a culture that is based on a fundamentally different paradigm, or understanding of life, than your own culture. It is very difficult!! So I am biased too – I expect that other western observers will face the same challenge.
In my opinion, India is rising, and is very ready to move past been judged as a success or failure, by how close it is to a European model of a nation-state. Finally! :-)
Perhaps the hardest part is neither looking down on another culture nor over allowing for another culture. I have found people the same in all cultures and that is all I look at. Some honest, some dishonest, some highly biased towards their own culture being best and so forth. Human character is the same the world over no matter the culture.
I am worried that India as a nation has sided with the uni-polar US for short term gain, similar to the Kurds in Syria.
Perhaps the picture will become clearer further down the track.
That is a humbling fact.
I was very young in Culture Revolution, but I remember what my parents’s friends and neighbors did. Absolutely nothing crazy. In fact, in later period, when my parents’s friends met, they will inevitably complain about the government. I think the brain washed nut cases (mostly youth) are very few, but with government encouraging them. If we had internet back then, imaging who would likely to comment, who would not. I would have not surprised if the wold thought we collectively as nut cases. Small amount people can do a lot of damage.
BTW. I remember my father talk to me about sino-india war in very disapproval manner: we were good friends, the premier was in India not long ago with show of great friendship, there should have not be war between us. Of cause he did not know anything besides the obvious. As usual practice, Chinese government does not talk about India.
So many different backgrounds here J. People that have grown up in different parts of the world all commenting here. I think that is what keeps me coming back to this site/blog even if I don’t always agree with others.
Hi, Peter, Your comment reminded me the experience I had when I was a student work at college sports center when I just came to US. It was a big state university, students from all over the world worked there. I was new to the country, and unsure of my situation as a student alone from red china. To my surprised, I found out that all of us, from Europe, Asia, to south america, are basic same. The way we work with each other, how we treat each other, how we approach our work, we laugh at same thing, and frown at same kind comments or behavior. It really make one wonder why the world fill so much hatred and division.
I remember I wrote to my father about there seemed no hard feelings between people from Japan, SK, Taiwan. I never met one Korean I do not like. and every Japaneses I met, in US, or later engineering counter part in Japan, are nothing but wonderful. All this just can not explain behavior of Japaneses government. A German friend of mine who worked in Japan for a few years had to remind me repeatedly that Japan is occupied country, and US does regime change if it gets too close to China.
In year 2000, I transferred to a new division that bringing in a lot of young Indian Engineers. One day, I realized a few of them seemed had a altitude toward me. I was surprised, and could not figure out why. I work, heat my lunch, then o back to work. I met them at lunch room where I usually do not stay more time than 5 minutes. I do not know them, or work with them. There could not be any chance for me to step on their toes. I do try to make conversation with people at microwave line, I also considered Indians are friendly neighbors as I like every Chinese brought up by stories of Journey to the west https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West and occasional Bollywood movies.
My good friend Ravi, who went to a US university and sat in the next cube, was not one of them. I really enjoyed conversations with him. One day we went to lunch together, out of blue, he asked “why did China started a war with India in 1962”. I was very confused, and honest did not know why. All I know was the war fought before I was born, it broke up a great friendship, and fought in the year we barely had any thing to eat. Someone must be very crazy to start any war that year, let along a war with a very good friend. It can not be because of Pakistan, Pakistan was way up at north, and the war was way down south. or the line of evil British design, that was not new. I was honestly could not answer him. After saw me really struggling, he made a comment that maybe because we lost the war, we are still so worked up, had we did not lose, it might not mean as much.
Recently a British had hated comments with some Indians, he was talking about their usual talking point such as We left you rail road, a working system, and you messed everything up. I had to interject that You (British) also torn them completely away from their roots, they still looking for way home after 70 years.
It is really appall to see the transformation this past two years, However, the other party, or previous government was not sant.
Thanks for your story J. That is what I find so interesting about this site.
I think no nation is ever perfect through and through. Russia, which has excellent leadership at the current time, perhaps the worlds best, still has a lot of issues with corruption and so forth at the lower levels.
Governments/leaders of countries come and go, and their attitudes to other countries can change with the leadership, so a country/nation as far as it affects the outside world, can only be judged by its standing leadership at any point in time.
Peter,
I do not quite agree with your take here.It is not leadership defines direction a country, It is people of the country defines leadership who relects the direction the people of the country want to go.
We all thought Bernie could get no more than 5% of vote, but people was ready for him, Hillary only barely beat him with election fraud.
Same are true with Brexit, Duterte, Modi, and etc.
Perhaps it should be divided into countries who’s leaders have high approval rating and those who’s leaders have low approval ratings? Above 50% reflects the way the majority of the people want the country to go, and below 50% approval as not reflecting the majority of the people?
Oh, in second paragraph, I meant to say there are no hard feelings between people of Chinese, Korean, and Japan. The war was horrible, but people are not government. We are basically same people anyway.
Peter, Since there is no reply option after your post, I post my reply after mine.
I think the rest of time the government reflect culture norm of the country.
Think about past 20 30 years:
Russia spent the time build up military,
Chinese spent time built up economy
America spent time produce big bangs around world, rack up big debt like a unruly teen ager.
India use the time brain wash its people for war with China and Pakistan, and now the population is all charged up spoil for a war.
None of them out of character or historical context. When time is right, a force figure come along to speed up the obvious. A true visionary would be some one leverage the direction of the mine tide, and tighten up loose end and bring population to another level. I think three country leaders excepts US are doing just that.
Do not expect too much out of leadership, they root from culture past. While Trump only give one line after thought for Israel, but when he met Bibi, he did say he supports Jerusalem as Israel capital.
The Chinese don’t care whether the US leader is pro Israel or anti Israel, they certainly don’t care about Jerusalem and Islamic theology. China buys more product and does more business with Israel than either Russia or India. The Only ideologues East of Central Asia that care about Israel are Pakistani and Malaysian (even Indonesians mostly don’t care).
Shoot Mirror, I hate to dignify your outrageous claims, but you got me this time.
Tell you a story. I about a year also ago, I shockingly found out Israel is looking for back up sugar dad in form of China. This guy who write about his great love for everything China also proclaim that Chinese treats Museums harsher than Israel does. A few of us had to broke it down gently to him, Chinese ideology seems really not that compatible with what ever is going on in Israel or Israeli way of thinking, Chinese does not drop bombs on their citizens, or perform target practice on their Children. Chinese government actually send those Uighur Muslim to trade school, and give them a job afterwords. So yes, some caught against rules, send to study a skill and given a job. A novel idea, isn’t it. But we Chinese expect no less from our government on how to treat our own people.
I did a research, while Hillary’s neo-con can not help themselves but trying to contain China, there are others strangely think China love them so much that will let our children die for their cause, or destroy our country for their benefit. I am not sure which kind fountain they drank from. So Israel already has sugar dad, in US, Russia (don’t deny it Putin, Israel is special to your country in form of Russian immigrants), and want one in China. I say there is chance of snow ball in hell that will happen. That said, if middle east calms down, Chinese likely will have a pit stop build some where around there for silk road if they stop sending the region to hell.
Chinese are not afraid of compete with Israel, or buy them up, or trade with them! No we do not care about others ideology, who are we to tell how and what other people should think or live?
Chinese government also told Chinese workers not to work at occupied territories. Chinese also well aware that they are racist against us and everyone else that is not one of them.
hi S113,
My take on your questions:
Korybko wrote a follow up on Katehon to his previous piece. In it, he lays the blame for India-Russia tensions on 1) outdated Soviet-era diplomats, with wildly romantic ideals from the 70’s about India, and 2) on India, whose guilt is demonstrated on the basis that they are willing to work with the US, and even form agreements with the US.
I have to tell you that the less said about Korybko the better, the Indian readers of this site from both left and “right” ends of the political spectrum have condemned his work as being totally off-base. Please check the comments section of the last article on India here on Sakers blog titled: “What is BRICS member India Really up to?”. Search for all Comments by user “Student” he/she (self described as being supportive of Hindu resurgence) has done an excellent of explaining why Korybko’s work is invalidated (it’s based on faulty source material). Student is very gentle (and too fair) in his/her criticism. Also in the same Comment section read V V Anand’s (someone who appears to be very cynical of Hindu nationalism and Left in outlook). V V Anand’s excellent feedback on Korybo’s work is also present in the same comments section. My own addition is I agree with both V V Anand and Student and I can’t help wondering if Korybko’s work also seems to be tainted from the influence and wining and dining and osmosis he receives from the Chinese where he is regularly invited to high-level conferences. The Indian anti-hindutva left and hindu-identity folks rarely agree, but in Korybko’s case they both seem to agree. You can also add Bhadrakumar, a man who is Indian left and openly hostile to Hindu indentity nationalism, his views too are totally opposed to the superficial projections and zero-sum theories expoused by Korybko.
2) on India, whose guilt is demonstrated on the basis that they are willing to work with the US, and even form agreements with the US.
Even Putin is willing to work with the US and form written agreements with them, does that make Putin a traitor to the “Struggle” (sarc)? See the double standards? See the “your either with us or against us mindset” flowing from certain idiot “hurray patriot” Russian political spectrum that condemn Putin or India of Heresy if he tries to be pragmatic and deal with the US? It is OK for Russia to deal with adversaries of China or India but it is not OK for India to deal with adversaries of Russia? A sort of Russian Exceptionalism shown by some of these “hurray patriots” section that thankfully Putin does not subscribe to.
Without knowing the truth, my inclination is to trust Bhadrakumar’s perspective because he has shown the ability to be brutally candid in his criticisms of his own government.
I would not fully agree with that, his criticisms tend to be partisan, so he doesn’t hold the same standard depending on whether his former party is in power or the BJP.
I find myself questioning whether Korybko is able to accept that the Kremlin might make mistakes sometimes.
Yes exactly right: it is odd that he appears to omit this possibility.
Since Bhadrakumar is so critical of the Indian government, I am inclined to believe him if he says that Moscow is at fault in this one.
Well he is far far more experienced, and competent in his analysis than Korybko, but I don’t believe he is fully correct in his blame of Russia. He is part of the Cold War old guard that expects Cold War style ideological loyalty, he seems to have not fully accepted/understood that Putin’s pragmatic Russia is not the ideologically influenced Internationalist Soviet Union. And yes he is privy to Russia having misbehaved with India in the past (this happens in any relationship) – it is one of the reasons India has diversified its defense procurement: there was a revolting “take it or leave it” attitude in certain areas of defense equipment from Russia that motivated the Indian side to dump these Russian contractors with their slovenly monopolistic attitude and procure from the US or Europe.
Again, I don’t know what the truth is, but if Bhadrakumar had evidence that the Indian government was ruining it’s relationship with Russia, he would shout it out loud in very explicit terms.
Especially with this BJP government, you are right. However his Cold War mindset is fueling his anger. He has certain expectations of Russia to act on loyalty, Putin has made it clear that Russia is pragmatic and does not want to be bound by loyalty or alliances. Likewise, no one should criticize India when it acts equally pragmatically in its self interests, do so is immature sour grapes and hypocrisy. This is the freedom from alliances that Putin spoke about in reference to a multipolar world.
So have we reached a point in global affairs where any formal dealings with the US [except for such dealings done by Russia and China] makes a nation guilty of vassal status and a traitor to the unfolding of a multipolar world order?
You summarized the hypocrisy of this ilk perfectly.
If I follow Korybko’s line of reasoning, is he suggesting that India is a traitor unless it accepts vassal status to the Russia-China strategic alliance? If the Kremlin cannot be held at fault, then this would definitely be the case.
Exactly! You have sussed out the underlying hypocrisy of his point of view and many others here (in the past) that espoused this patronizing sick joke that India should take a back seat to Russian Chinese “leadership”: A concept diametrically opposed to the multipolar model espoused by V. V. Putin and Jaswant Singh. Korybko seems to expouse the “equally” evil twin of American Exceptionalism: Russia or Chinese Exceptionalism. We can laugh at such stupid attitudes because it’s never going to happen.
So is no other country permitted to have an equal viewpoint to the one held by Russia-China or the US? This really is a Cold War then isn’t it? And India is getting “blame the messenger” treatment for not walking politely within the boundaries?
You nailed it. I should add “in the minds of certain Exceptionalist and zero-sum fools who are destined to be frustrated.” The irony is that this is not the position of the President of Russia but rather of those pretenders to throne (within the system) that imagine themselves wiser than Putin.
India is messy. By that, I mean it is accepting of chaos. The predominant religion is not a Christian faith, which believes in one earthly life, then heaven or hell, amen. It’s reincarnation until one attains enlightenment in Hinduism. The German perfectionism that I was exposed to, is not the guiding principle here. High standards, yes, but not autocratic European style. I thought of it as the un-German actually, and I benefitted so much from being part of it.
India is cleaning up its act, a lot of the laissez faire attitude will go with it, but not the acceptance of diversity and plural views. At the current pace, even in 1 decade you will see transformational changes.
Do they still get to sit at the table with the other Eurasian nations?
Of course we do. Let anyone try and stop us and they will fail.
A quick additional comment:
India is messy. By that, I mean it is accepting of chaos. The predominant religion is not a Christian faith, which believes in one earthly life, then heaven or hell, amen. It’s reincarnation until one attains enlightenment in Hinduism. The German perfectionism that I was exposed to, is not the guiding principle here. High standards, yes, but not autocratic European style. I thought of it as the un-German actually, and I benefitted so much from being part of it.
Do they still get to sit at the table with the other Eurasian nations?
No, they don’t because the new Eurasian order is a Sino-centric one w/ Russian Energy.
Ultimately the traditional order is an Indo-Centric one w/ Iranian energy in this modern case.
China does not forget that it was Buddhism which reached its shores & not vice versa.
It does not forget who the largest economy for most of history is, nor does it forget that the straits of hormuz & malacca are its lifeline. Who is within 500km of these ‘life-lines’
India will not sit at the table, it will Stand while others bow. It is the only path left,
As the fact is for past 2500yr sicne Alexander every major power has tried to destroy us.
Now the the Khalsa Sikhs have been created, Revenge is going to be colder than a Kashmiri Winter on Siachen & the temper of Arya Ksytrias is hotter than a Punjabi winter. :)
In the interest of mod directives to post further information,
I think that if Iran-Russia can balance the Indo-China rivalry there can be one table.
Otherwise I think eventually Japan/Vietnam will get pulled in & China will be isolated.
Despite being Indian, I try to be less bias in analysis as it hampers our interests to have imperfect information. From that POV, I think that Indian soft-power cannot be matched.
Thanks for sharing your views, Singh. It’s good to hear more perspectives.
You know that picture on Auslander’s Russia Sitrep, Oct. 7? The one of Putin and Lavrov at the Whitehouse? I was thinking I could see Modi and Rouhani there. With Erdogan. And Duterte.
:-)