by Henry Mangold
Britain, once a great world power, is now in most respects ruled from Brussels, as part of the European Union. This transfer of power was carried out, essentially, by a conspiracy. To understand how this conspiracy was possible, it’s necessary to understand the present British constitution.
In the eighteenth century, Britain had a hereditary king, who was responsible for defence and foreign affairs. Taxation and legislation were the responsibility of two houses of parliament, one of them elected (The House of Commons), the other hereditary (the House of Lords). The king could veto new laws. Equally the two Houses of Parliament had a degree of control over royal policy, through the power of the purse. Armies and navies cost money, which must come from taxation.
When the US constitution was planned, the British constitution served as a model. The US wished to replace the hereditary principle by election, but attached great importance to maintaining the balance of powers. The role of the king would be performed by a president; the functions of the House of Lords would be performed by a senate, elected by the constituent states of the Union. The elected House of Commons became the House of Representatives. The result has been durable and remains comparatively unchanged to this day.
In Britain too, the hereditary principle was abandoned, but the change happened gradually, without any consideration being given to the need to avoid concentrating too much power in any single institution. The power of the hereditary parts of the constitution gradually declined, until almost all power came into the hands of the only body which was elected – the House of Commons. In 1780, the monarch was already less powerful than he had been a century earlier. Over the next hundred years, he/she lost all real power and become a figurehead. The hereditary House of Lords continued but also lost most of its powers and new Lords were increasingly appointed by the Government, for life only.
The decline of the power of the monarchy and of the hereditary House of Lords placed all real power in Britain in the hands of the elected House of Commons. There were no constitutional restraints. Britain had no written constitution, there was no constitutional court to permit or prohibit far-reaching legislation and no legal requirement for a referendum to be held before any major constitutional change.
In practice all political power was concentrated in the Prime Minister and his Cabinet. Elections occurred every few years but they were fought between two disciplined political parties and the leaders of the winning party were then in a position of uncontrolled near-absolute power. The leader of the majority party became Prime Minister. The Prime Minister chose his cabinet from among supporters in his own party. The Prime Minister and his cabinet determined all policies, initiated almost all legislation and saw it successfully through Parliament, by the power they held over their party’s MPs in the Commons. There were occasional revolts, but MPs knew that rebels very seldom become ministers and might lose the endorsement of their party at the next election, meaning almost certainly the end of a political career.
This brings us to the 1970’s. From being a world power, Britain had declined to the role of “sick man of Europe”. Britain was the only country in Western Europe which didn’t seem to have recovered economically from the War. Inflation was at levels previously unheard of. Internationally, Britain’s reputation was lower than at any previous time. Governments cast around for a solution and (with American encouragement) resolved to jump on to the European bandwagon. This involved giving up much of Britain’s national sovereignty.
When Britain joined the European Economic Community (later to be rebranded as the European Union) in 1973, laws were passed which transferred much political power into the hands of an unelected European Commission and made British law subordinate to European law. This profound constitutional change was carried through solely by Acts of Parliament, essentially on the basis of “whipped” votes in the House of Commons. Perhaps even more significantly, this cession of power to a foreign institution took place without the Government or the media honestly informing the electorate of what was happening. Had they done so, the change could never have happened.
The practical impact of the EEC on most ordinary people in Britain was initially minimal and when a referendum on membership was held two years after joining, it was possible to present the new arrangement as a success. The question of the sacrifice of sovereignty was hushed up, the “Yes” campaign had the support of the BBC and almost all the media and was heavily subsidised by Brussels. The referendum result of course confirmed our membership.
The pretence that there has been no reduction in British sovereignty has been kept up, unbelievably, for more than forty years. In 2016, most of the electorate is still not aware that the country is governed in most respects from Brussels rather than London, and the British Government still claims credit or is blamed for decisions which have actually been taken at the European level. It is also still quite normal for both the leading parties to make promises as part of their election campaigns which they should know perfectly well they can have no power, under European law, to implement. The mistake (or more likely deception) goes unnoticed because most people don’t expect politicians to fulfil their pre-election promises anyway.
British people are still only dimly aware that anything has changed. The British still vote for MPs to go to Westminster. The Prime Minister who emerges from this traditional procedure still talks to the electorate as if he has a free hand to make decisions to please them. Civil servants have to constantly remind him of the extent to which the EU circumscribes his power to change things. Because the British see no swastikas around, most people still believe that Britain is an independent country. This is ridiculous, but perhaps it shows where British loyalties still lie. If the British still think Britain is an independent country, then in the last resort, it is.
At the beginning of the American Civil War, General Robert E Lee was offered a senior command in the Federal Army. He replied “Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four millions of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?.” He was faced with a conflict of loyalties. All his military life had been spent fighting for the United States, and he had greatly distinguished himself. But was he, in the last resort, an American or a Virginian? Lee decided that in the last resort, he was a Virginian. And once his decision was made, he led the forces of the Confederacy against those of the Union, and he almost defeated it. This happened because, at that stage in its development, the United States had not yet established itself as the primary focus of loyalty for its citizens. At that stage, America was much further along the line of integrated development than the EU is now. No British soldier, faced now with the same conflict of loyalty as that which faced Lee, would hesitate for a moment.
Thus there has so far been no significant popular reaction in Britain against EU membership, because its effects, for most people, have not obviously been very harmful or oppressive. Where they have been harmful or oppressive, they have been hushed up by the media. Where this was not possible, responsibility for its effects has been absorbed by the British government. Most of the damage has been done to agriculture, fisheries and industry rather than to the ordinary citizen.
This is changing now. European policy on the free movement of labour has resulted in the large-scale movement of people from Eastern Europe, where wages are far lower than in Britain. As a result, immigration is now at the top of the political agenda in Britain. And European environmental policy has led to the closure of coal-fired power stations: a cold end to the winter could yet lead to widespread power cuts caused by trying to rely on renewable energy sources. European wildlife preservation policies are preventing rivers from being dredged and there has been widespread flooding in parts of the country which do not normally experience it. And immigration (and perhaps danger) is now starting to come not only from Europe, but from the Middle East.
The European skeleton is falling out of the cupboard.
The Anti-EU Opposition
There has always been opposition to Britain’s EU membership. In particular, the Conservative party has always had a right-wing minority which opposed it, but in the last resort remained loyal to the Party. The left wing of the Labour party also had an anti-EU tradition, but the Labour left wing has almost disappeared. British politics in the era of Tony Blair and David Cameron has been dominated by the centre. The minority Lib-Dems, successors of the old Liberal Party, were until recently the party of protest at the grass-roots level; but at the top, in their anxiety not to be left out of the Establishment, they were more pro-EU than either Conservative or Labour. The British media, particularly the BBC, are pro-EU.
Opposition to EU membership became akin to heresy. The electorate, which was enjoying its holidays in the sun, became persuaded that to be anti-EU was to be anti-Europe, even racist. Until the East European workers came, most people had felt no obvious ill-effects which they could attribute to EU membership.
Opposition was initially academic and came from a small minority. It became clear that no established party would change its policy. To launch and empower a specifically anti-EU party seemed well beyond the means of those who felt the need for it. Nevertheless after a number of false starts, the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP) was founded in 1993. Among its founding members was a 29-year old commodity broker, with no previous experience of politics – Nigel Farage. UKIP has gradually grown and is now, under Farage’s leadership, a very significant force in British politics. A British exit from the EU is now on the political agenda and a second referendum has been at least promised.
Farage first became leader in 2006 and can claim much of the credit. But changing circumstances also have helped. Since Margaret Thatcher’s period in power, the British tax regime has been more favourable to business and some fortunes have been made; and among smaller businessmen, there has been increasing irritation with the straightjacket of European regulations. People are living healthy lives for longer and there is a significant minority of retired people (mainly men) with time on their hands and experience of the world. UKIP has been able to draw on these potential reserves of British patriotism. Those who have the money to contribute, or at least the time and energy, have increasingly been willing to help. The media are losing some of their power, as alternative sources of information have appeared on the net. UKIP has gradually increased its membership. It now has a network of local branches with enthusiastic members throughout England – though not in Scotland.
The EU itself has unwittingly provided an opportunity for UKIP to gain ground. The EU Assembly has very limited powers; but regular EU elections are held throughout the EU on the system of proportional representation. British electors are not very interested in the EU parliament, but some of them value any opportunity to participate in the political process. UKIP first contested the EU elections in 1994 and in 1997 got 6.7% of the UK vote, giving 3 members. After some reluctance, it was realised that some degree of participation in the Assembly would give UKIP a platform. And the very generous pay and allowances of EU Assembly members offered leading members the opportunity to become full-time paid politicians and contributed to party funds.
Farage took full advantage of this opportunity. Restrictions on speaking time kept his contributions short and the EU Assembly paid little attention, but his real audience was in Britain, through the medium of Youtube. He is a brilliant extempore speaker, of a kind almost forgotten in British politics since the days of Lloyd George. Listen to him explaining what UKIP is all about to the Canadians. Youtube had some direct impact on the electorate, but more importantly, it gained the attention of the UK media, who became aware that Farage was good television and gave him publicity.
UKIP’s profile rose and the party – particularly Farage himself – received increasing media attention. As he started to be perceived as a threat, the attention became increasingly negative. It was not difficult to find material on which to base new smears – few politicians are perfect. Every little mistake made by a UKIP candidate was magnified by the media in a way which was not applied to other parties. Inevitably there were also problems arising from candidate selection. The prospect of a lucrative EU seat sometimes aroused the interest of the wrong kind of people. A surprising number of UKIP’s elected MEPs (European Parliament members) defected to other parties or set up parties of their own. Discipline was strengthened and the process of candidate selection became much more thorough.
In the 2014 European election, UKIP got 27.5% of the UK votes for the EU Assembly and they now have 24 out of 73 UK members, more members than any other UK party. This confirmed its importance and still further raised its national profile. But In the 2015 UK General Election, UKIP got only 12.6% of the national vote. Because of the British first-past-the-post electoral system, only one UKIP candidate was elected and he was a former Conservative member who had managed to retain the personal loyalty of his constituency. This very disappointing result has been followed by a difficult period for the party, with some leading members (led by the only UKIP MP, Douglas Carswell) challenging Farage’s leadership. But he retains the almost unanimous support of the membership, fortified by a nationwide programme of public meetings.
Farage has put EU membership back on to the British political agenda. David Cameron, concerned at the leakage of votes to UKIP, has promised a new referendum no later than 2017. Most public discussion assumes that Cameron will keep his promise, but experience suggests that there will only be a referendum if and when Cameron is sure he is going to win it. At present, he probably would. A recent survey by Survation suggests that British attitudes towards the EU are predominantly negative but that many people would vote against leaving the EU, even though they are opposed to membership of the EU in principle, because they are “afraid of the potentially disruptive risks of ending our membership”. In other words, they are reluctant to take a leap into the dark. And it seems possible, even likely, that these fearful votes would currently be enough to prevent the No side from winning the referendum. But Cameron (and his EU friends) cannot be sure of the result they want. They hope that times will change; and they probably will change, but not necessarily in the way they hope for.
Levels of immigration from Africa and Asia look likely to rise to a level where the EU will have difficulty in surviving in its current form. The EU pretends to be a state. Like real states, the EU now permits free movement of labour within its borders, and the old frontier controls between its members have increasingly been dismantled. But in its external relations, the EU is not a state at all. Unlike a state, it has no system of unified external defence. It has been forgotten, that if the frontiers of the member countries are to come down, a correspondingly strong external frontier has to be asserted and adequately defended by the resources of the whole EU. So the EU has two possible ways forward. Either the full military resources of Europe have to be deployed to defend the frontiers of the EU, wherever a threat may exist to them (and the EU, in its present form, has no military resources). Or the frontier barriers within the EU must go up again. And in fact the frontier barriers are already going up again everywhere.
The immigration crisis comes on top of the economic crisis which is already embittering relations between Germany and Greece and has the potential to embitter relations between Germany and Italy also. Both crises have arisen because of doctrinaire obstinacy on the part of the EU. The EU is now discovering what happens if you arbitrarily impose a single currency and free movement of labour on a geographical area containing many different peoples with differing traditions and no proper external frontiers.
It’s always hard to predict the future, but it is very hard to imagine Britain still belonging to the EU in five years time, even if the EU continues (in some form) to exist. The future of the continental EU looks very much like trouble; and it sounds, after recent events, as if the trouble is starting, not for the first time, in Germany.
The Left Wing
The Left Wing, which may be defined in Britain as the alliance between the labour movement, represented by the trade unions, and the socialist intelligentsia, has gone through a period of political unimportance ever since Margaret Thatcher. Trade union membership and power is much lower than it was and the Labour Party itself has been converted to economic liberalism. Tony Blair’s government paid some regard to the old socialist ideals and the interests of the working class, but in most respects followed the liberal agenda. After a brief period under his colleague Gordon Brown, the Labour government lost power. It has lost touch with its working class roots. Labour party membership has declined. Only a few older Labour members of the Commons come from working class or trade union backgrounds . The others are graduates, sometimes ex-public sector workers, more often former researchers with little experience outside politics at all. In the mean time, wage levels have failed to keep pace with prices, unemployment levels have remained high and in many parts of Britain, young people have found it very difficult to get started in work at all.
Meanwhile, after Labour’s disappointing performance in the 2015 election, the Labour leader resigned and there was a leadership contest. New rules opened up the contest to all members of the party and made it possible (like an open primary) for join and vote easily. Jeremy Corbyn, a veteran Labour MP on the left wing, a voice in the wilderness until now, has been elected.
Corbyn’s Labour leadership campaign re-ignited an old flame that had almost expired. All over the old Labour heartlands , everywhere he went, he delivered eloquent and powerful speeches to packed audiences. Standing ovations in the big halls were followed by calm and convincing informal interviews which impressed by their honesty and apparent reasonableness. Bright-eyed young followers proclaimed that he was giving them hope at last. Old Labour veterans claimed to feel rejuvenated. It was an extraordinary performance for a man of 66, who had been an isolated left-wing figure in the Labour Party for most of his life.
Corbyn is the Leader of the Labour Party, but he got there against the strongly expressed wishes of most Labour MPs. So far he is still leader and most of the Commons Labour leadership have made their peace with him. Much still depends on his tact and political skill. A few Labour members may continue to oppose him on grounds of principle; others because they believe that he will make Labour unelectable in 2020. But 2020 is a long way off and their seats are probably safe until then. They may well wonder whether Corbyn will survive as leader anyway until 2020.
Actually Corbyn is personally electable. Recent Survation research showed a sample of all electors one-minute clips of each of the candidates being interviewed by Andrew Marr to help them to make up their minds. They judged that Corbyn would make the best leader of the Labour Party, with Andy Burnham second. The best of a bad bunch, you may say – and certainly none of the other three is very inspiring. But this leaves out of account the extraordinary enthusiasm which Corbyn seems able to generate at his meetings, particularly among the young.
What about the media and the powers that be? Journalists love him because he makes news. But the big guns feel very differently, because he has for many years been a strong supporter of the Palestinian cause and a bitter opponent of the Iraq War, the other Wars on Terror and NATO provocation of Russia. There will be some very serious attempts to unseat him in one way or another well before 2020. From across the Atlantic, he looks a completely unacceptable Prime Minister of Britain, and the pressure for Labour Party regime change will build up if Cameron starts to sink in the polls and perhaps lose some by-elections.
Corbyn initially refused to commit himself on the EU. He has inherited a very divided party and his first priority after his election is to achieve unity under his leadership – a united front in Opposition. But the truth is that many of his policies make very little sense and cannot be enacted anyway within the straightjacket of the EU. If he gets stronger, he may come out clearly against it. .
Scotland
England and Scotland became a single state in 1707. The Union was freely entered into by both countries and has undoubtedly been of great benefit to both. It was never a complete fusion, because Scotland and England have each always retained a strong sense of national identity, with their own legal systems and (which was important in the 18th century) their own versions of Protestantism. To this day, asked their nationality, many if not most inhabitants of both countries, will reply “I am English” or “I am Scots”; the concept of Britishness has never entirely caught on. The Scots, although closely allied to the English, have a distinct national character. Politically they are definitely on the left.
Scotland was one of birthplaces of the Industrial Revolution and suffered much economic damage as the old heavy industries – coal, steel, shipbuilding – contracted. Inevitably, perhaps, they blamed the English; and particularly the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher. When she recently died, there were few regrets in Scotland. The Scottish Daily Record epitomised the Scottish mood:
She swept like a wrecking ball through the mines, the steel industry, the car factories, shipbuilding and engineering and oversaw the demise of the communities which had built their livelihoods around them.
If this was really true, good enough reason for bitter memories. But in Scotland and elsewhere, Margaret Thatcher has become a symbol for changes for which she was not responsible. She is blamed for the death of the old industrial Britain. Before Thatcher, it is believed, there were busy coal mines and humming factories in Britain, and the close communities which had grown up around them. During her reign, those industries were closed down and those communities broken up.
The truth is different. Margaret Thatcher did not kill off the old industries of Britain. She recognised that mines cannot continue to produce coal and factories to hum when markets change and the old opportunities have gone. She saw the striking miners as Luddites, doing their desperate best to preserve the past in the face of irresistible historical change – and that, unfortunately, is what they were. Just as around 1800 the Industrial Revolution destroyed the old cottage industries of Britain and substituted new industries and new urban communities, so the industries and perhaps even the communities of the nineteenth century were destined, in their turn, to go.
As the mood in the South turned decisively against socialism and as London achieved a new prosperity which the more distant parts of Britain did not share, there was much bitterness of this kind in the North of England too. But in Scotland, old reserves of nationalism gave it additional strength and respectability. For a time, North Sea Oil gave Scotland a new opportunity. But Scots accused the Government of taking too much of the profits and the oil started to run out.
Scotland has always had a degree of political devolution with its distinctive legal system, but of course no separate parliament since the Union. But the Labour governments of Harold Wilson and Tony Blair perceived a political opportunity. Both Scotland and Wales were Labour strongholds. Let them have their own assemblies with some devolved powers and these two parts of Britain could have the benefits of Labour rule all the time. And so it proved until the Scottish Labour Party, corrupted by the temptations of Blairism, lost power in Scotland and the Scottish Nationalists, with a far more left-wing agenda, took over. Nationalism became increasingly fashionable in Scotland and finally led to the referendum on independence.
The Scottish referendum aroused worldwide interest – and some astonishment. What other national government in the world would allow – almost encourage – a major part of its territory to hold a referendum on independence, and given a positive result, to secede? And Britain, whose whole strength has been based, historically, on the unity of the British island and the width of the Channel – to throw those incomparable advantages away!
A separate Scottish state would not be viable and is almost certainly not going to happen. It makes no sense and everybody really knows it makes no sense. Alex Salmond, who led the Scottish National Party into the referendum, is a canny Scot and a truly independent Scotland was probably his slogan rather than his real objective. He wanted the Scottish referendum to include a maximum devolution option. If this compromise option had been allowed on to the ballot paper, that’s probably the way things would have gone. He would then have been saved the terrifying responsibility of coping with a flight of capital southwards and actually setting Scotland on its feet as an independent country, complete with a financial deal with the UK, a good slice of our Army, its own Navy and Air Force, its own currency, its own relationship (or non-relationship) with the EU, and everything else that goes with being a modern state.
There are many other countries – democratic or not – which combine or have combined central government with devolved government in provinces or states. They can be divided into two categories. The first category – where disparate states with differing political cultures come together in permanent alliance – is called federation. It often works very well. The second category – where a previously unified country is divided into partially separated units – is quite different. It is a progressive tendency which, if not arrested in time, leads to disintegration. It happened to the Holy Roman Empire in the Middle Ages. It happened to the Soviet Union in the 20th century. At times it appears that it is happening to the United Kingdom now. But even lunacy often has its intervals of sanity and the Scots are usually more sane than most. The referendum campaign was taken very seriously in Scotland and the participation rate was high. But the result was sensibly negative.
The Scottish National Party now threaten that if a referendum is held in which England votes to leave the EU and Scotland to stay in, they will raise the question of independence again. Perhaps they will. But their electorate is unlikely to support them.
The Future
We are now in 2016 and events are increasingly overtaking political decisions. Thousands of young men, including an unknown number of Isis members, are pouring almost unchecked into Europe from the Middle East. Penetration has been greatest in Germany, the richest and most powerful, but also the most politically immature country in Europe. The enemy have come unarmed, but even without arms they appear to have commenced organised terrorism in German cities. Arms and explosives must of course be on the way. In Paris, Europe has already learned what that means.
At Calais, most of the invading flood has been halted. Britain is entering one of those periods (frequent in the past) when she has been very grateful for the insulating presence of the English Channel. Britain has a consistent history of sleepy political drift, interrupted by the appearance of determined and usually successful leaders (Cromwell, Lloyd George, Churchill) when action has become essential. She may have drifted for too long this time. There is no one in British politics, with the possible exception of Farage, who could conceivably offer the vision and leadership that is needed. Farage has already proved his mettle under extremely adverse circumstances: he has great courage and he believes in his country; he has proved his organisational abilities too. Could Jeremy Corbyn be the man? There is no evidence that he could. He responded brilliantly to his opportunity when it came. But he did nothing to make it come. Could they bring their forces together? They agree on their opposition to American warmongering; but in every other respect they are poles apart. Farage would have to lead the way; and it is hard to imagine Corbyn following his lead. If Farage cannot rescue Britain, BritaIn is in the hands of God. The future is unpredictable. But Europe and the world need Britain to speak (as she has done in the past) with an independent and powerful voice for sanity and civilisation.
Henry Mangold is a retired commercial researcher and businessman with a lifelong interest in English history. He learned Russian in the Army and studied English at Cambridge.
Not sure about his assessment of Scotland. The difficulty for Scotland to build itself as a separate country is very real, but the sentiment is stronger than ever given that almost every seat in Scotland went to the nationalists at the last election, expressing their feelings of betrayal after the promises given to them if they voted “No” were casually broken.
Also not sure about the assessment of Thatcher. Her rule was incredibly destructive. Of course the mines had to close down eventually – when they ran out, but not while they were still viable. This source of energy was sacrificed by Thatcher to break the unions. The privatisation of the North Sea oil simply deprived the British state of revenue, and encouraged the new owners to raise the cost of domestic consumption to maximise their profits, and indirectly result in the deaths of thousands of elderly people who died from exposure because they couldn’t afford the heating bills. Then there is the privatisation of council houses, removing much of the affordable accommodation from the reach of people on low income.
Also: there were other than “young men” amongst the refugees.
Can’t say I’m impressed with Mangold’s analysis.
“The difficulty for Scotland to build itself as a separate country is very real”
Why?
Irish partition from the UK occurred in 1919. Someone said this to the question – Should Ireland rejoin the UK in 2015?
“A ridicules idea At the time of partition in Ireland 90% of industry was within the borders of what’s called Northern Ireland. Now the figure is the opposite. It was independence and the ability to work for ourselves that built ireland.
The United Kingdom is a London centric country, Wales , Scotland and the north of England forgotten and the North of Ireland deliberately put out of mind. Union to this would be insanity for Irish people to choose. Even at its lowest in the current time Irish gdp is higher that britains.”
Quoting, “Now the figure is the opposite. It was independence and the ability to work for ourselves that built ireland.”
Not quite as simple as that. Firstly there was a bloodletting. Do not forget that Civil War that occurred in Ireland. Then Ireland remained mired in poverty and lower standards of living until various costs associated with independence and civil war were off-set. What really built the country up was changes to its tax structure and regulations allowing people to make a start building savings, capital and wealth (that is, to keep more of the benefits of what they produced rather than have it confiscated). A big part of it was the availability of capital via loans and investments from off-shore coupled with on-going subsidies and mega-grants from the EU. Lastly there was the gradually reducing power of the Catholic Church and political traditionalists.
Was the South of Ireland viable on independence? The answer must remain a resounding no. Initially it was not. A great change was necessary for it to become so. And that was extremely costly of human lives, productive capability and lost potential. Interestingly, that fact was well known to Churchill and the bigots of the North.
By the way, I am not in opposition to independence of Scotland. What is required is an understanding by people that there are costs and fundamental changes in attitude, ideology and behaviour are necessary. These are not easy.
Siotu
Good piece.
“Viable”? if we take that definition as manageable then – yes…a cursory search gives http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/scottish-independence-ireland-since-1919-is-a-lesson-for-scotland-in-what-a-yes-vote-means-9727596.html
“After independence, there was much economic hardship.”
&
“Another danger signal for the Scots. In 1932, De Valera decided Ireland would no longer pay debts to the UK government for loans given to tenant farmers when the country was part of the UK. The British introduced trade restrictions which bankrupted farmers and businessmen in Ireland.”
So, the “Scots” can learn much from the circumstances.
By the way, I believe all nationalism is infantile insofar as this aprt of that definition “The strong belief that the interests of a particular nation-state are of primary importance”.
Yes well done James. There is a sprinkling of women and children amongst the refugees.
But look at he photos – even though they focus on the odd family – the background is chock a block full of young (military age) men.
Always telling where someone draws the line. The UK must be independent of the EU. But, Scotland independent of the UK? Not viable! although we’re not told why. (If Scotland ever regains its independence, it will be interesting to hear the response of government in Edinburgh to the Shetland Isles’ demand for independence -a large chunk of the oil is under their coastal waters.)
A subsidiary question. Why does UKIP get a platform here? Its notion of independence is just a different variety of subservience to America. We disobey the instruction to integrate with Europe in the hope of becoming the next state of the US of A after Israel.
Scottish independence campaign was based on oil price at US$110.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/6f2fd24e-5d29-11e5-9846-de406ccb37f2.html#axzz3xS1Gw919
Have you seen where the oil price is now?
The campaign was not based on the price of oil but on a demand for independence from Westminster (although not apparently from Brussels!).
You asked why Scottish independence wasn’t viable. If the oil price in their financial projections was fixed at US $ 110 pb, then that plan is no longer viable.
One set of projections for public spending would have to have been revised. That is not the same as the independence of a nation.
Quoting Ali, “One set of projections for public spending would have to have been revised. That is not the same as the independence of a nation.”
In the case of Scotland it would be. Scotland is (presently) a socialist wasteland. Where would an independent Scottish government expropriate sufficient wealth to fund itself, its insiders, special interest groups and all the social welfare benefits? There are not enough productive people available to plunder for it all. That leaves borrowing on the never-never and evisceration of public spending.
Good luck with borrowing. Public spending cuts would soon arrive and they’d need to be right down to the bone and further (deep into it in fact). The cuts would be more severe than even what Greece is experiencing. Unmet expectations would soon result in expressions of violent discontent and instability. An independent Scotland is not on the cards until such time as it can support itself. Hence at this point Scotland is not viable as a nation. It is merely a welfare basket case and will remain so until old ideas and attitudes die off, replaced by reality.
Siotu
Exactly!
Phew, just as well oil & gas are only such a very small part of the Norwegian economy and the Russian economy and the Venezualan, otherwise they’d all have to sign over their sovereignty.
AEM
Unfortunately there are no free lunches in this world. Eventually the tab must be paid. It is not possible to live beyond your means indefinitely. In the end Norwegians, Russians, Venezualans, all of us face that same reality.
Siotu
At least you have retreated from the assertion that Scotland can’t be independent because the price of oil has fallen.
AEM
I’ve not retreated from my position.
In order for Scotland to be a viable independent nation, then its government must live within its means. With oil falling from an expected $110.00 per barrel to a mere $30.00 per barrel (and lower) it is clear that expropriations from the oil industry would be drastically reduced. This means that an independent Scottish government would need to mulct other sources in the attempt to attain projected income targets. There are insufficient productive people to support that, so the options remaining are a heavy program of international borrowing and a necessarily severe reduction in spending. With the arrival of those spending cuts come consequences. Cue widespread social problems, political instabilities and violent unrest. Hence at this point Scotland is not viable as a nation. It is merely a welfare basket case and will remain so until old ideas and attitudes die off, replaced by reality. Those changes are inevitable for a viable and sustainable independence.
Siotu
I think the point is you’re rather exaggerating. Scotland is a high-income society. Iceland has survived its banking crash. Greece has still not cracked. I get the impression you think no nation that doesn’t knuckle under to the “Washington consensus” is worthy or able to achieve statehood.
Greece is a ward of the EU and the IMF.
Just saying.
Hello ali
You are wrong. The point being made is that it is not possible to consume more than what is produced indefinitely. At some point the bills fall due. That is certainly going to be the case for an independent Scotland, just as it has proven to be so for Greece. This point is going to crop up with increasing frequently in the near future in several countries and in many communities and for a great many individual people.
You make the comment that Scotland is a “high income society”. Follow the money. Where does that “high income” come from? What are the sources? Hint: Look South.
As has been stated above and is well known the price of oil has collapsed from an anticipated $110.00 to $30.00 and less per barrel. Again, follow the money. The obvious conclusion is that income for an independent Scottish government would be severely constrained by the non-availability of the majority of the expected expropriations from the oil industry. This necessarily means that reductions in spending must and will occur, since there are insufficient alternative sources of wealth available for expropriation to make up the shortfall. That, in turn, leads to social (and political) consequences as unmet expectations crash against absolute constraints. In the end it is obvious that the present social arrangements are not viable thus dooming an independent Scotland to be non-viable until and unless there are major changes right down to the level of individuals. It requires the abandonment of old ideas and attitudes.
Greece and Iceland are in different situations to each other. Both are different to the Scottish situation. What is evident is that Greece has indeed “cracked”. Its economy has crashed and now is starting to burn. It has lost sovereignty to its creditors. The situation there remains unsustainable and unfortunately it is about to get a whole lot more difficult for Greek people. It is very most distressing. This is what occurs when a nation puts its trust in politicians and lives beyond its means. Greece has yet to survive its crisis. Indeed it is getting more and more serious over time. Watch carefully. There are lessons to be learned and remembered.
Icelandic people have a level of productivity, capital savings and wealth which made it possible to have acted to survive their crisis in vastly better shape than the poor Greeks (who have yet to come to terms with their governments’ profligate borrowing, vote bribing and spending and who have yet to abandon unsustainable old ideas, attitudes and expectations).
Quoting you, “I get the impression you think no nation that doesn’t knuckle under to the “Washington consensus” is worthy or able to achieve statehood.”
You are wrong. Important request: Please avoid playing the man and address your attention on the facts of the matter- focus on discussing the topic. Had you inquired, I’d have answered that I was sympathetic to Scottish independence and had hoped the Scots would take on and face up to the many challenges it presented. It was disappointing, if not altogether unexpected, that they did not.
Siotu
Siotu
Two quick points from many.
As Iceland and Greece have shown, immense economic dislocation is consistent with continued sovereignty. Recall that what you argued is that Scotland cannot be a viable independent state because of economic dislocation. Evidently your argument does not go through. I think in any case you should look more carefully at the Scottish economy before concluding that lower oil revenues constitute dislocation on anything like a comparable scale. Sovereignty is perfectly feasible without blood on the streets. (As a puzzled aside, you seem to believe that Scotland is populated by shysters who depend on handouts from England. A bizarre misapprehension.)
As I understand it, you are saying that Icelanders have made a difficult adjustment the Greeks have so far shirked. I think you’ll find the adjustment by the Greek people has been of a similar magnitude. The difference is in the monetary regime. Greece is forced by the euro (in effect a fixed exchange rate) to adjust by a relative decline in its price level (requiring prolonged recession and deflation). Iceland had the option of currency depreciation, which allows the adjustment to be made without such severe consequences for real activity (as a comparison of GDP growth in EU floaters v. fixed exchange rate economies will demonstrate).
My comments on the Washington consensus were not ad hominem, but an attempt to interpret your various strictures about welfare, government and basket cases that bear little resemblance to anything to be found in Scotland, and therefore appear irrelevant. It is not a secret that a heavily indebted economy will at some point require to cut consumption. However, it does not follow that there is any need to bow to the dubious wisdom of the IMF and make a desert and call it prosperity (for anyone other than the banks who represent the IMF’s main constituency, as Greece has discovered to the cost of its people).
You are quite correct to say that we should concentrate on the facts of the matter.
I don’t see a “reply’ link under Siotu’s comments.
So I’ll put my “reply” here.
In the run-up to the independence vote I read a number of analyses of Scotland’s economy, current stats, and economic potential whereby the point was made that an independent Scotland IS a viable economic entity. Here is one such contribution:
http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/
Darn I a m getting the “posting comments too quickly” thing. ????
Katherine
Sorry. I meant to say that the adjustment in the relative price level has to be achieved by a real adjustment to the economy rather than nominal, that is, prolonged recession rather than price inflation.
Before people get their hopes up, it should be noted that (the last I heard) the UK ‘independence’ party was in favour of the TTIP treaty. It is difficult to imagine any form of independence after that monstrosity is signed.
MarkU
please, may we know who/where did you hear it from?
who told you farage is in agreement with TTIP ?
thanks
Link to a source please :-)
This was the article I was alluding to (the last thing I saw on the matter) Admittedly there have been developments since though, just type in UKIP and TTIP into google to see those for yourselves. They are certainly not unambiguously opposing it even now, which is hardly surprising for a party founded mainly by business-friendly eurosceptic tories.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/14/ttip-deal-british-sovereignty-cameron-ukip-treaty
but MarkU,
you are contradicting your own self..you said earlier farage/ukip were in favour of ttip agreement.
please refer back to your own original posting on this subject so to remind yourself of what you wrote – which was to say that: you “have heard that farage/ukip was in favour of ttip””
i sincerely hope you are not here to spread disinfo
“the British constitution served as a model”….”Britain had no written constitution”.
I’m confused, but the second sentence gives the game away. Britain, aka UK, has no written constitution. As N. Starikov has pointed out, this means that Britain runs under the law of omerta, i.e. logistics of the underworld. If that is true, certain things start to make sense. I haven’t noticed UKIP talking much about NATO, which of course is under the thumb of the United States and the money-printing machine of the Federal Reserve Bank. Farage’s youtube speech is incredible showmanship but slim on multi-polar dynamics. Until NATO and the Fed are mentioned, I look with skepticism on UKIP’s premise… Cui bono? Thank you for a great article!
Interesting op-ed, trending heavily on the op and poorly constructed: The alleged “crisis” doesn’t appear until the final paragraphs while too much space is devoted to poorly explaining UK political history. Given the title, the crisis needs to be described in detail and then shown why the UK must awaken to it, allowing the essay to become an argument, not an op-ed.
“Given the title, the crisis needs to be described in detail and then shown why the UK must awaken to it [..]”
How about this for awakening to reality… too many people, few houses = crisis.
The end :/
–
Oh! That needs more clarification? Alright then…
House prices, even for a shoebox are going through the roof as well as rents. Then you have years, if not decades long waiting-lists to get into State subsidized housing, and since the borders are wide-open, you always get a certain type, of a certain “minority” with eight sprogs on tow who get to jump in front of you on the waiting list.
And at first people [*by “people” read: mostly baby boomers] didn’t care about any of this because mortgages were being handed out to all sundry like candy mints. This was before the 2008 baking crisis. That’s all stopped now.
After a few short years, reality is starting to sink into their thick skulls now…
People are not being paid high enough to qualify for a mortgage at the exorbitant prices houses are going for. Result? A lot of adult children [between 20 to 35 y/o] have to stay with their parents because they can’t afford a place of their own (that includes rents too).
So, the I’m-alright-Jack types -> those who got their mortgage cheap in the past and managed to pay it off or are close to paying it off – are the same ones who didn’t care about being part of the EU [or not] nor they cared about uncontrolled immigration before.
Oh! But, they care now because they realize they can’t get rid of their adult kids like they thought they could, in order to sell the house [at a handsome profit], retire early and go to sip sangrias in sunny Spain in their ‘golden’ years…
-TL2Q
I understand that if you are on the average salary in the UK, then over 80% of the housing is out of your price range and you will not qualify for a mortgage on the basis of insufficient income.
Siotu
@ Siotu:
Pretty much.
It’s all further exacerbated by the fact that “average” yearly income, – unlike what the presstitute media says – rests something along the lines of 25K a year [after tax, and only if you’re lucky] rather than the 35K plus they like to advertise as “average income.”
Therefore you have around 70% of the population just barely making ends meet. So, yeah! Of course they don’t qualify for a third-of-a-million-worth mortgages, let alone the more realistic house prices which are hedging towards the half million mark.
In turn: this results in rather unhealthy ‘relationships’ of convenience… so, for example; the best chance you have to get a mortgage is to combine incomes with someone else. A couple who can barely stand each other [whether married or not. Hell! Whether with children or not], might stick together just for the sake of having a roof over their heads.
Same goes for friends [room mates] who are forced to cohabit, for the same reasons.
BTW, the rent-market is not that different; landlords are getting ever-so-picky, demanding larger security deposits [which is always guaranteed you’ll never see again. It’s just a money spinner at this point] and shorter tenancy agreements: six months tenancies are becoming the norm, particularly in sought-after areas with “good transport links.”
Then you have the realtors’ never ending fees to add to the tenants woes.
At this point, a lot of young[ish], “professional,” European people are just running on tread mills going absolutely nowhere while chasing a carrot they’ll never get.
-TL2Q
your analysis most fair and balanced, a priceless reference piece for readers outside britain who may not be paying attention. thank you sir.
personally, i too believe that farage would be the only viable leadership figure, amongst other because of his business background. he may have what it takes to pull the country together again.
although, disturbingly, both corbyn and farage may be at the crosshairs of britain’s sizeble business/financial elite.. i mean it literally – they might just be zapped in freak traffic accidents as was the case with farage’s loose rear wheel back in october of last year (this was reported as sabotage attempt by french police). farage graciously declined to take the matter any further.
best regards and i hope to read more of your contributions in the blog.
thanks again
“The Union was freely entered into by both countries” ?
Is Mangold saying there was a referendum on this act of English hegemony?
No of course there was no consultation at all. What happened was that the Scottish elite were simply bribed and did the dirty deal in virtual secrecy.
There were riots in Edinburgh when the people found out. Our national poet Robert Burns described this disgusting treachery in a poem with the immortal lines –
“What a parcel of rogues in a nation”
I suspect Alex Salmond would take great objection to the slanderous remark that he does not seek real independence for our nation and I also believe that whilst Scotland needs England for nothing especially the endless wars, not to mention the elite paedophilia, England would do poorly without us and it’s colonies as it has always needed other countries – empire -to leech off.
I think too that most folk nowadays realise that we are governed by a financial elite and that the politicians serve them and not us.
As a person of Irish heritage, I view current Scots claims of victimization by the English with some ironic amusement. It was the Scottish elite doing the bribing for the union of crowns, in particular the Glasgow merchants, who were pursuing a long standing policy of the Scottish Stuart dynasty, of which “good Queen Anne,” who signed off on the union in 1707, was the last monarch. Neither the Scots nor the English Parliaments had been in favour of, and had resisted, union, for a century. Stuart King James VI of Scotland had no sooner been crowned James I of England than he began to refer to himself as the King of “Great Britain,” to the vocal protests of both nations’ parliaments.
There were riots in Edinburgh because Glasgow would gain power at Edinburgh’s expense, and indeed it did, and much, much more. Glasgow wanted the protection of the English Navy for its maritime commerce, especially after the Scots’ abortive effort at imperialism in the Darien debacle. Glasgow had also suffered from tariff barriers and commercial competition with England, as well as from other large European mercantile powers. It wanted to be within a free trade zone or customs union with England. Burns became a British customs and excise agent.
Glasgow’s bribery of both parliaments paid off in spades. By the end of the seventeenth century, it had become the richest port on the west coast of Britain, having taken away a great deal of the tobacco and slave trades from Bristol and Liverpool, being several days closer to North America on the great-circle sailing route. By that time also, Scots had pretty well taken over the English Empire, which the Scots renamed the “British” Empire. How did they do this?
The Scots had an unrecognized advantage over the English. At the time of union, Scotland had five universities, St. Andrews founded 1413, Glasgow founded 1451, Kings College Aberdeen founded 1495, Edinburgh founded 1495 and Marischal College Aberdeen founded 1593. England only had two universities, Oxford and Cambridge, for a population five times greater. Oxford and Cambridge were devoted primarily to the Classics and Theology. The Scottish universities had more “professional” programs, including the famed Edinburgh medical school.
With a much better educated populace, Scottish administrators had gained control of the major imperial trading houses, the East India Company and the Hudson’s Bay Company, by the end of the eighteenth century. In the nineteenth century, Scottish financial interests gained control of the opium trade in Hong Kong through Jardine Matheson and the Hongkong and Shanghai Bank.
The Scottish population flourished, quadrupling in Scotland by the end of the nineteenth century, while sending as many as three million to populate the newly acquired (by Scots and English arms) domains of the Empire, a sevenfold population growth in total. Glasgow itself was the second city of the Empire after London, in 1901.
Much more could be written about Scots nationalist mythology with respect to the Norman/Breton knight Wallace, the Norman/French dynastic families of de Brus (Bruce) and Stuart, and the centuries-long maneuvering of the Scottish monarchy to position itself to claim the English crown, as it eventually did, not to mention the Scots’ enthusiastic participation in the imperial subjugation of Ireland.
Bit of a curate’s egg this. The Scots do not seek independence now because they feel victimized but because they want to run their own affairs. The Irish have every reason to snort in derision at the idea of Scotland suffering like them. The Highlanders might take the derision amiss. The references to the Glasgow merchants indicate the conflict between different interests. England inhibited Scottish trade. Scotland had bankrupted itself in the spectacularly stupid Darien venture. And England wanted to secure its northern border against attack from Jacobites and Europe. Glasgow merchants no doubt did their share of bribing. So did the English government. It also concentrated minds by moving an army to the border. Many Scots prospered from the Union and the Empire. It always has to be remembered that Scotland played a full part in several centuries of British rapine. It is now less keen than England on bombing other peoples and housing nuclear weapons. The benefit to Scotland of Union has been slight in the last seventy five years or so. Since 1979, Scotland has consistently voted for what Westminster never has delivered. Scotland is more social democrat than England. Even New Labour was neo-liberal. There is a democratic deficit similar to that in the EU (one has to hope Scotland does not stay in). This is only of any importance to anyone else if Scottish independence manages to reduce Britain’s role as America’s ally in crime. Scotland is likely to be too weak to withstand American bullying.
Thank you. Very interesting. I believe the Scots were highly educated in all professions, especially engineering. Also business, accounting, banking. So much comes down to educational level of the populace.
But I wonder about this statement: “. . . while sending as many as three million to populate the newly acquired (by Scots and English arms) domains of the Empire,”
Wasn’t that emigration and resultant population of the far-flung corners of the empire a result largely of the highland clearances?
Katherine
No. The Gaelic speaking and Catholic Highlanders were a very small proportion of Scotland’s population, perhaps 10%. They were viewed by the vast majority of their countryman, who spoke a language very similar to English, if now considered a dialect of Low German, in much the same way as the Hungarians view Roma in the eighteenth century. Sir Walter Scott, a scion of a Border Reiver (bandit) family changed this attitude with a pageant that he produced in Edinburgh for the new King George IV, in 1822. He convinced the dimwitted, morbidly-obese, ethnic-German king to wear a kilt, because he was a true Stuart Prince and reincarnated Jacobite Highland Warrior.
The clearances were over before the end of the eighteenth century. There is one small pocket of Highlander migration in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, were Gaelic is still spoken. Strangely, this colony remained loyal to the Crown, during the American revolution. Otherwise, Scottish emigration in the eighteenth and nineteenth century resulted from population pressure (give a nod to Scottish medical success) and economic migration, just as did the concurrent massive migrations from England and Wales, and also from Ireland, except for the famine induced exodus of the 1840s.
The Highland Clearances “over by the end of the 18th century” is just wrong.
I don’t think any linguist would classify any variety of lallands as closer to Low German than to English.
Sorry for the oversimplifications of complex subjects. Clearances did continue until the mid nineteenth century, when the Duke of Sutherland found he couldn’t raise any troops for the Crimean War, but I suggest that their proportional contribution to emigration from Scotland was much smaller than in the eighteenth century.
The Scottish population almost tripled from about 1.6 million in 1801 to 4.5 million in 1901. Obviously, that growth, with the accompanying population pressure for emigration, was not in the Highlands. By comparison, further population growth from 1901 to 2001 was about 600,000.
Both Lallands and English have the same root as Low German. I suggest that Lallands remained closer to its root by being not quite so influenced by Norman French as is English. Consult the coloured chart by scrolling down in this article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages
I’m not sure what the Crimean War had to do with what was essentially the last stages of enclosure in Britain. Landowners had been enclosing land throughout England and Scotland to graze sheep for three centuries or more. The clan chiefs who nimbly reinvented themselves as lairds after the last Jacobite Rebellion found sheep more profitable in the pacified Highlands than clansmen. There is also the hard fact that the Highlanders were subsistence farmers. The land was poor. There were frequent famines, right into the nineteenth century. It may be that the land could not support the population. We’ll never know, because the landowners were ruthless in exploiting every resource for their profit (even down to the kelp!) Clearances were still going strong well into the late nineteenth century.
Population growth need not be a good indicator of “pressure to emigrate”. The population of Scotland grew about 180 per cent in the nineteenth century; of England, 280 per cent. The growth rate fell sharply in both in the twentieth century (although much more so in Scotland). There is clearly a number of factors to take into account. (For one thing, the nineteenth century saw the most dramatic economic growth of the industrial revolution. Central Scotland was one of the centres for heavy industry, mining, iron and steel, and shipbuilding. Many of the “flourishing” population were working class, many of them down from the Highlands, and across from Ireland.)
I think you will find that Scots and English are near allied, more nearly than either with German, as your wikipedia entry confirms. My wife’s grandparents sp.oke the lallands of the county next to Burns’s Ayreshire. I think you’ll have to trust me on this one.
And interesting article. A few questions I’m wondering about. Other than withdrawing from the EU what does UKIP stand for as a party. To just be anti-EU sounds more like the Ukrainian nationalists,where other than hating Russia they have no real meaning. And if the Scottish nationalists are so left of center wouldn’t they be a natural ally for Corbyn’s Labour Party.If not for actual Labour candidates but for a parliamentary alliance between the parties. And since UKIP seems to support friendship with Russia. And so does Corbyn,isn’t that a basis for some agreement there as well (which is why I’m interested in other UKIP ideas.To see if they agree on anything else.). I actually don’t see a need to “break-up” the EU (or at least a major part of it). I see a need for it to return to purely being a “customs union”. Along the lines of the EEU. Its the idea of a political union of 28 different states. Ruled by mostly non-elected bureaucrats in Brussels that the problem stems from.The divisions between the different states,are too great for a close union. The ethnicites,languages,religions,and cultures,differ so much as to always work against a real union. There are several “chunks” of the EU where a real union might be viable. But not the EU in total.
@ Uncle B:
“A few questions I’m wondering about. Other than withdrawing from the EU what does UKIP stand for as a party [..]”
Hope this helps:
[* Way too long to copy/paste it all here, but I’ll highlight the things I agree with, if you folks don’t mind…]
–
Ukip manifesto 2015: summary of key policies
Deficit and the economy – Ensure Treasury sticks to plan of eliminating the deficit by the third year of the next parliament, with a surplus after that – Remove EU directives which hamper the British economy – Negotiate a bespoke trade agreement with Europe [..]
Health Service – Extra £3bn a year for the NHS by 2020 – Insist migrants and visitors to UK have private health insurance [..]
Taxation – Increase [tax] personal allowance to £13,500 – Cut business rates for small businesses – Increase the transferable tax allowance for married couples to £1,500 – Ensure big corporations pay their fair share of tax – Remove VAT from listed building repairs and [women’s] sanitary products [..]
Defence – End continuous at sea nuclear deterrent – Ban arms exports to countries flagged up by the FCO’s human rights report [Hello Saudis!] – Help service personnel and veterans with mental health problems.
Environment/Energy – Repeal the Climate Change Act 2008 [LoL! Bring it!] – End so-called “green taxes” to cut fuel bills – Prioritise support for organic farms –
The Department of Energy and Climate Change and green subsidies will be abolished.
–
Anyhoo…
More here> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11536535/manifesto-2015-summary.html
And here> http://www.ukip.org/ukip_manifesto_summary
-TL2Q
Well said. And here is Suzanne Evans presenting the detailed manifesto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8mNS0a98ro
Imagine the Eurosceptic part of the Tory party as a separate party. That’s basically UKIP.
Max Keiser is scathing of the UKs economy. Its a hub of banking Jihadists
I’ll believe it when I see it.
See what? One asks. – See the EU project stop and turn back, and see the UK no longer part of the EU in 5 years. A European Union run by autocratic fascists in Brussels.
In case people don’t understand the real and formal definition of fascist and fascism (it doesn’t mean rightwing racist nazi-like), here’s the formal definition:
“an autocratic political system in which the government controls business and labor and where opposition is not permitted.”.
That pretty much sums up the attitude and power of the Brussels autocratic bureaucracy. MEPs don’t have any legislative powers, and a fascist Brussels bureaucrat or committee of unelected bureaucrats can pass far reaching regulations that are effectively binding laws. Brussels and the EU is government by closet fascism or fascism by stealth. No surprise that the illegitimate Western European petty elite, their owner, the Banking mafia, and the parasitical oligarch collaborators of Eastern Europe and Southern Europe love the EU so much.
I always had the cynical feeling that the EU controlling-mafia were encouraging this refugee crisis to goad the European public into demanding military action to stop the flow of refugees by “fixing” Syria. But, I thought it might even go beyond that: that the EU controlling-mafia were trying to build a “business-case” for a pan-European army. What do you need for an army in a wealthy nation/continent, especially a continent whose citizenry are very resistant (cynical & wise) to becoming somebody else’s cannon-fodder?
(1) You need localized artificially created poverty and long-term youth unemployment, and
(2) You need a Pan-European security and existential crisis.
I really think these scumbags were trying to slowly engineer this via turning the youth of Southern Europe into desperate recruits/cannon-fodder willing to enter military service in search of better opportunity/employment and a purpose in life. Engineered cannon-fodder to be used for the whims of neo-hegemonic EU ambitions.
Hopefully, this refugee crisis and common-sense border controls in Eastern and Balkan Europe has sabotaged or exposed this medium-term to long-term plan. The EU is a threat to freedom and liberty for all Europeans, it will destroy and homogenize each country’s unique culture and it will demographically wipe-out large swathes of the populations of Southern Europe by attrition, late marriages, medical & pension neglect and low birth-rates caused by poverty and imposed anti-social, anti-family “liberal/alternative” values.
Fascism is the destruction of organized labour and the atomization of the working class during periods of capitalism in crisis. Real wages haven’t gone up since 1970.
Socialism or Barbarism. One Solution, Revolution!
RR
Henry Mangold’s piece impresses in how carefully it leaves out the hideous, stinking, giant elephant in the room: British imperialism with The City thriving on worldwide plunder, war, and genocide for three centuries and counting. This makes sense all right — the nationalism of oppressor nations such as Britain and its Pindostani offspring is either aggressively megalomaniac or self-pitying or both (e.g. the Zionist Entity). The reason Britain’s EU membership hasn’t upset the British themselves very much is precisely because it hasn’t infringed on the very foundations of their wealth, past and present: financial parasitism along with the armaments industry. The de-industrialization in other erstwhile British manufacturing sectors such as steel and automobiles has been going on for much longer. Needless to say, each and every British politician understands/has understood full well what really matters to the survival of British bourgeois society; Churchill, Attlee, Thatcher, Cameron, Farage, and Corbyn.
It is in this light that the refugee crisis becomes particularly interesting. Western politicos and presstitutes, after all, are but the loyal servants of the financial Oligarchs, faithfully promoting/eulogising their wars and overall criminality before a “broader audience”. As long as global, imperialist apartheid wasn’t being touched upon, this wasn’t too big a headache. The significance of the refugee crisis is that now the supreme taboo has been finally broken. Imperialist wars are destabilising the aggressors’ Heimat as well, and deliberately so. It must be particularly frightening to EU loyalists of course, but it cannot be very comforting to EU adversaries either. The latter love to talk, sure, but the ever faster descent into chaos won’t let them get away with that and, more ominously, will also make very clear what criminal insanity at the top of society they’re up against.
“most of the electorate is still not aware that the country is governed in most respects from Brussels rather than London”
Correction – replace Brussels with Berlin.
Half of EU aid wasted, stolen or lost in red tape: £11.5bn handed out by Brussels each year fails to achieve its aims
Study by MEPs found £11.5bn of the £23bn doled out fails to achieve aims
Expert said the EU was ‘effectively throwing the money down the toilet’
MEPs now calling for wide-ranging review of way Brussels spends aid cash
Study will raise fresh UK concerns about size of the aid budget and its use
By JASON GROVES DEPUTY POLITICAL EDITOR FOR THE DAILY MAIL
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3404175/Half-EU-aid-wasted-stolen-lost-red-tape.html#ixzz3xagzg2CK
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Imagine where the remnants of the British Empire/Commonwealth would be now if they didn’t have their anglo cousins across the atlantic oceans,till now unrivalled military superiority, to back them up and sustain their pre eminence in the world? I think there will be masive shifts in the ground under our feet when Wall St and the City of Londons International Casino Banking Centre finally reach the peak of the summit they continuously climb, it’s long way down…………..with no quantative easing credit card money around this time to break the fall. I wonder at Britain being one of the first countries to join the Chinese led AIIB, spurning Washingtons request not to. The english establishment love cricket, it’s the long game.
The actuality of UKIP and Europe.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-branded-laziest-political-party-1936913
“Leader Nigel Farage has the fifth worst attendance record out of all 752 MEPs. His anti-European Union party sidekicks Godfrey Bloom and deputy leader Paul Nuttall, who each pocket more than £60,000 a year in Brussels salaries, are even lazier. Mr Bloom is second only to Ireland’s Brian Crowley in missed votes — attending less than a third. Mr Nuttall sits fourth last, voting just 46% of the time. The figures, unearthed by the Mirror, mean UKIP has three of the top five laziest MEPs.”
“Labour MEP leader Glenis Willmott added: “They claim to be protecting British interests, but when decisions are made in committees, UKIP are nowhere to be seen. When crucial votes are taken, Nigel Farage leaves the chamber. Where’s the British interest in that?”
“Conservative MEP leader Richard Ashworth said: “UKIP bank the salary, pocket the expenses, but don’t turn up to do the work. They let their country down. If you’re working for constituents, you’re in doing the hard graft, not lording it around the pub the way these people seem to. They’ve all the yap, none of the action.”
It is the omertà or airbrushing in relation to the corporation of london that exposes this article, disappointed to see such disinformation upon this site.
H.M. The Queenie has to ask for the Lord Mayors permission before she sets foot inside the square mile. You’d have thought someone concerned about independence would be aware of that?
How about the obscured understanding that parliament itself has to answer to the corporation and had done for some time now.
To be clear the American (and Indian & others) Congress’ did not declare their independence from a crown but from a corporation (tea parties, salt matches etc. all we have to do is join the dots of history to circumnavigate the obfuscation).
The contention that Farage, the stock broking son of a stock broker cares about the rights of UK citizens is gibberish not worthy of further comment save to say that an inability to identify and understand how UKIP was used to heard and corral the electoral vote in the UK in the last general election towards the far right is an immature an incomplete understanding. UKIP had and has huge disproportionate media coverage in the UK relative to other parties who had the same number of elected representatives. UKIP was without doubt or question a very useful tool. That is what it is. No more. No less.
In London we’d say that anyone who takes UKIP seriously, at face value? is acting like a “tool” (cockney rhyming slang).
Mr. Mangold raises the subject of immigration.
The Saker has said that “white” Europe is no more. There has been much justified contempt for Europe, helping create chaos in North Africa and the Middle East and then showing itself incompetent and unprepared to deal with those seeking refuge from the chaos. There has been much discussion of the clash of cultures between a decadent Europe and the traditionalist (Muslim) influx, with most here, I think, showing little sympathy for Europe.
Mr. Mangold adds a West European concern with East European immigrants: we are happy to accept economic migrants when they are invisible (Chinese cockle-pickers on the mud flats or Romanians harvesting our vegetable crop on starvation wages), but unhappy at a sudden influx speaking foreign on our High Streets! As it happens, textbook economics has had a (rare) triumph and all have won prizes (even the English unemployed – Poles pay taxes).
Can I suggest (to see what others think) that behind the proximate causes for the immigration is a much larger long-term cause. It is evident behind the unrest in Syria and in the steady stream of those fleeing Africa. Climate change. We can mourn the passing of “monoculture” in Europe, if we wish. But we have to face up to the impending catastrophe, which is going to cause vast numbers to flee their homes in search of sustenance. Our community is now not local but global. We are responsible each for each. None of the discussion here so far addresses this.
Overall, not a bad synopsis of recent UK history. But there were some noxious neo-liberal asides, as well as Thatcher apologism, sprinkled in here and there. For example: “…so the industries and perhaps even the communities of the nineteenth century were destined, in their turn, to go.” This is typical neo-liberal tosh. Mining and mass-production have not ceased to exist; they simply moved from Britain to China, thanks to Thatcher’s ‘privatization’ schemes. Nowadays, Britain–the country that virtually invented modern industry–is forced to import what it used to produce in-house.
Seamus
So are the British importing coal from China now? After all, according to you that’s where the mining has shifted to. Or, is it the case that there are superior sources of energy for a UK that no longer operates in the same manufacturing arena as once it dominated?
Well before the time of Thatcher, Britain had already devolved into a high cost, low quality producer. I well remember visiting the place and witnessing how low the standard of goods and services actually was. The place was in free-fall decline. That mining and manufacturing were in collapse was obvious. I visited a manufacturer that was using machine tools that had been new in the 1930s! And these guys thought they could continue like that. Potential customers thought very different. Thatcher was correct to let the rot go. In reality she could not have saved it, just as Gorbachev could not save the USSR.
Examine the UK car industry. Do any of you remember the things they exported from the UK to the rest of the world throughout the 70s and on into the 80s, let alone what they foist onto their own people? Sure, some of it was of sound design, but the quality and execution was abysmal. In this part of the World (Australia, the Pacific Islands including New Zealand) the cars that were not British were Australian. European and US cars were exotic and very expensive and Japanese cars did not exist. Once the Japanese cars were available that was the end of the British stuff. Few people would buy them. They were rubbish- unreliable. In the end the same thing happened in the UK itself, with the local brands failing. It was inevitable. None of it could be saved. It got sold, privatised or closed. Fair enough too. It was by luck and the charity of foreigners (non-Brits) that some of the better-known brand names survived.
Mining and manufacturing is gone from Britain, as it had to be given what was being produced. The community arrangements founded in the 19th century had to go because of the failure of the industries founded in the 19th century. They were destroyed as the direct result of social policies and practices developed from 19th century ideas. In time those also will be gone and something new will replace them.
Siotu
The problem with post-war Britain was that it was essentially bankrupt. Because of this, machinery and tools were not replaced for many decades after the war. By the time that the economic climate turned bad in the 1970s and 1980s, British manufacturers had fallen too far behind to catch up, and they were outcompeted. But this would have been possible to reverse, had a programme of massive investment and government support to the industrial sector been put in place. Had this been done, British engineering would perhaps have been as successful as the Germans. Instead, Thatcher gave support only to the financial sector, and allowed Britain outside of London and the Southeast to sink into the abyss – or as you call it, a “wasteland”.
There you have it, that’s the basic reason why Thatcher is so reviled in Scotland, and by many many in northern England.
I won’t comment in detail on Harry’s lengthy contribution.
Suffice it to say that he rehearses most of the familiar memes of modern Toryism:
1/ Thatcher is idealised as an economic realist recognising that the mines were no longer economic. This was not the case: her battle against miners was political. She used the power of the state to smash Trade Union militancy and pave the way for almost forty years of declining wages and living standards. Why is it that Tories consider policies designed to reduce the bulk of their fellow countrymen to poverty as defensible in terms of patriotism?
2/ Britain’s economic decline since 1945 is largely attributable to policies which, on the one hand committed an enormous proportion of public expenditure to imperialist “defence” policies while, on the other hand, paying war debts in full, mostly to the USA. Again, these are policies which benefited only the City of London’s financiers, investors in the Empire, on whose behalf the taxpayer and a conscript army waged a series of wasteful wars against national independence movements (cunningly sold as ‘Communist Terrorism’) and in order to ingratiate the ruling castes with Washington.
3/ The EU is, as Harry suggests, a cause well worth fighting against. Sovereignty is the foundation of democracy- without it elections are mere opinion polls and governments over paid focus groups- but the real threat to British sovereignty comes from the US Empire which controls Brussels as much as it does NATO. Leaving the EU only makes sense if the UK abandons NATO at the same time and orders US bases out of the country.
As GDH Cole pointed out in 1948, for Britain after the war to throw in her lot with the Soviet Union would have been a mistake but to submit to US domination was bound to be a disaster. All the time that Tories were using the Press, and the Security Services, to promote the lie that the Labour Left was controlled from Moscow and that Britain’s independence relied on the country becoming a satellite of the Pentagon, in reality the US controlled Westminster, owned both political parties and has been committed to rolling back the hard won gains that the British people instituted in the 1940s-both during and after the war.
In breaking that Social Contract- whittling away at social security, health and education systems, and in giving away public property, from the housing stock to the utilities- successive Thatcherite administrations, including that of Labour between 1997 and 2010 have been doing the bidding of a US government which has regarded the NHS and the Welfare State, the cheap and efficient utilities, from the London Tube to the Electricity Generating Boards, as a threat to the ramshackle profit driven services against which the US people protest in vain.
bevin
What social contract was it to which you refer? Who signed it? Does it prohibit coercive expropriations of funds, goods and property from other people?
When Thatcher’s regime ascended to the treasury benches was the UK government indebted? Was it spending more than it was able to expropriate from the people? In what state was the manufacturing base of the UK? Was it a world leader as once it had been or was it that other thing?
Siotu
The European crisis for 2016. Yaaah!
Also France is well involved:
“…President Francois Hollande has set out a €2bn job creation plan in an attempt to lift France out of what he called “a state of economic emergency”…”.
A €2bn plan? The scrapped contract agreed with Russia for the two Mistral class ships was worth almost €2.5bn….! Ahahahahaha!
Félicitations Monsieur le Président…
The main question raised isn’t so very parochial. It’s not just about Scots or Catalans, or Greeks. It’s also about Kosovo and Crimea, Uighurs and Kurds. What criteria determine who can establish an independent sovereign state?
On the more parochial question: We’ve been told Scotland can’t sustain independence. And this has been maintained even when it is pointed out that the Icelandic economy imploded, and Iceland is still a sovereign state, and Greece is being squeezed dry by the Troika, and yet Greece remains (just about) a sovereign state – it could withdraw from the euro and from the EU if it chose. And Scotland is more prosperous surely than Albania (without looking further afield for yet more impoverished states). So, what are the criteria determine the material conditions necessary to sustain an independent sovereign state?
Ewan
For a sustained independent Scotland it would be necessary for major alterations in the behaviours and expectations throughout the population. In the absence of changes of ideology, politics, social practices and policy an independent Scotland presently remains non-viable. Now that’s not to say independence could never happen. What it does mean is that were Scotland to become independent there would be severe cutbacks in government spending. People would have to learn to cope with that immediately. They would have to learn to be independent personally. It would be increasingly difficult if not impossible to survive by dependency or subsidy. They’d need to produce more than they consume. This is achievable, but not at present.
Greece has lost its political and financial sovereignty already, but let’s run a thought experiment. In this scenario the government of Greece departs the EU and abandons the Euro. What do you expect the consequences to be?
Quoting you, “what are the criteria determine the material conditions necessary to sustain an independent sovereign state?”
There are various. For example, a shared culture, language and values. Returning to the context of this discussion, the ability to produce more than is consumed.
Siotu
Siotu:
Can you produce some facts and figures to support your assertions? That sound kind of a priori and axiomatic to me. But less and less convincing, the more you simply repeat the same mantra=like opinions.
Katherine
Katherine
I’m afraid I repeated the same point as I’m used to seeing it evaded. I’m apologising for annoying you with it.
I have read through the independence financial model which was provided to me by an analyst firm for review and comment last year. It isn’t mine and I don’t have access to it presently (I’m on holiday vacation as it summertime here). I was and am sympathetic to independence. As you know, my understanding is that at the present time it would be non-viable. A lot needs to alter. Still, perhaps the expected international economic slump may result in another effort…
When I wrote to Ewan, my focus was on learning what he expected would happen if Greece pulled the pin on the Euro and the EU. That is an interesting thing to consider. I know a lot of people who privately wished the Greeks would have had a go and done it, even though they couldn’t say so “in polite company”!
Siotu
Personally I’m neither here nor there with Scottish independence.
From a purely financial perspective :
Scotland has a very large banking sector that employs thousands of people and that represents 1220% GDP e.g. Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland. The UK government had to bail out these banks.
Who is going to be saddled with that debt after independence?
http://scottishresearchsociety.com/scottish-banks-liabilities/
“Like it, or not, the Scottish national balance sheet is simply not significant enough, and never could be with only 5.3 million people, to support the current activities of the Scottish financial sector.”
Iceland was mentioned above but they had the courage to let their banks fail.
Scottish National public sector debt is at GBP 80 bn (excluding bank liabilities) quite large for such a small country. How would they finance the debt? What about the deficit? Borrowing costs?..
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/feb/27/scotland-independent-debt-deficit.
“Conclusion
There is overwhelming evidence that Scotland will be economically better off as an independent country. Even opponents of independence have conceded that Scotland can be a successful independent country. Their own negative economic forecast estimated that Scots would be just £1 worse off a year.
In contrast every single Government Expenditure and Revenue report for the last 30 years – compiled with official statistics – finds that Scotland generated more tax per head than the UK.”
This article has generated a lot of very interesting discussion about Scotland’s economic viability. But there comes a point where we have to forget about economics and pay attention to defence. As an Englishman, I’ve not the slightest objection to Scotland running its own economic affairs if the Scots want to. But as a historian I am terrified of seeing once again a hostile army on the Scottish border.
Let’s suppose that that Scotland remained in the EU after England had left and the EU pulled itself together and decided it had got to keep the immigrant flood out by looking to its defences. Let’s suppose it built up a proper European Army. Let’s suppose that in ten years’ time, the German or French EU leadership decided to sort out the English problem once and for all, by force……
Britain successfully defied Hitler and Napoleon. Could England alone, with Scotland hostile, have been able to do that?
Mike
The UK has a nuclear weapons capability. Wouldn’t that be a deterrent against military invasion?
Cheers!
So has France, perhaps much improved by then. Sorry, I still don’t want a cold war situation so near home, with two nuclear-equipped armies grinning at each other along the line of the Border. I prefer things as they are, thank you.
This is entirely serious and not at all hypothetical. National sovereignty cannot be discussed primarily in economic terms. In the end, it may become a question of life and death. It would be absolute lunacy for any British Prime Minister to be permit this island to be divided politically. Even David Cameron probably realises that. For that reason, whatever the SNP and the polls say, the Scots will probably not be offered another referendum.
Siotu
Where do you get your notions about what Scotland is like? There is in philosophy a response to a far-fetched argument called “the incredulous stare”. Some references might help.
Ewan
I have been there many times. I maintain contact with associates and some friends who are resident there.
Please avoid playing the man. It is unbecoming of you to do that.
Siotu
You have pretty much “played” the whole population of Scotland! Unbecoming indeed. Some references would be nice. Otherwise it has to be “the incredulous stare”
Actually, in confessional, reminiscing mode, I’ve had friends and associates down the decades who share your shrewd character assassination of what are technically their fellow countrymen/women. Of course, they tend to be the sort of acquaintance who have beaters, don’t you know. I remember some of them on Budget Day, oh, it must have been in the year ’87, I remember in particular the purr of pleasure as they calculated the effect of Mr. Lawson’s tax cuts on their net income. To those who have… and all that. Would that be the sort of behaviour, expectations and “ethos”, if you will, that you say the population as a whole must develop if Scotland is to be viable? Or is that for the creme de la creme only, perhaps, those who have earned the right, or at least inherited it. It’s funny how earned and inherited band together and make the rules, but are never considered interest groups extracting rent from the economy, only the undeserving poor, who have to learn to cut their cloth and so on and so forth. You know it’s been quite a nostalgia trip to hear that quite distinctive blend of neoliberalism and old Toryism. I do apologise. Not playing the man, don’t you know, it’s just that you set me reminiscing about the Scotland of old.
Greece has now fallen into a debt-deflation trap. It will be servicing the debt forever. As even the IMF admits, this argues for the creditors to take more of a hit. This is especially so given that much of the debt could reasonably be argued to be “odious”, and the creditors knowingly extended more and yet more credit on the assumption that, as in all other banking crises, they would get their money back.
Be that as it may, Greece remains a sovereign independent state. Whether it continues to cede its sovereignty to the Troika or takes a stand, it faces an economic catastrophe that makes Scotland look like a haven of prosperity. (I assume the threat to create chaos by refusing Greece’s banks ECB facilities is what caused Tsipras to fold, but an orderly exit is feasible, as Herr Schauble advocated.)
Yet, despite its dire plight and choice of austerity or austerity, Greece remains a sovereign state.
The argument was that Scotland could not sustain independence because the oil price had fallen. Russia, Venezuela, all the other oil producers, are still sovereign, though mired in economic problems. Whole banking systems have collapsed, yet Iceland, for example, is still sovereign. Greece is trapped in a debt-deflation, yet is still sovereign.
QED, as they say.
Ewan
Quoting, “……., Greece remains a sovereign independent state. Whether it continues to cede its sovereignty to the Troika or takes a stand,….”
And, “Greece is trapped in a debt-deflation, yet is still sovereign.”
Either it is sovereign or it is not sovereign. It can’t be both. Either it is sovereign or it has ceded sovereignty. It can’t be both. And, at the present time it has, as you correctly identify, ceded sovereignty.
Instead of claiming QED you ought to have admitted,”Non demonstratum quod erat demonstandum.”
Siotu
Siotu
Good point.
However, even my mistake contains its own correction (ahem, or so I’m going to maintain). Greece has been bullied into doing what the Troika tells it. It still has the power to say no. It is still a sovereign state.
So, still, almost despite myself, QED.
Katherine
Something has gone wrong with the reply function and I can’t reply directly to your posts any more. Sorry about that.
I visited the link you provided. Thanks for it. It is an interesting promotional piece which omits a few details of some relevance. I’ve seen write ups like this previously. They are inevitably optimistic. After all it is a sales effort. They are selling an idea. Good on them. There is no wrong in that.
What one has to bear in mind is the expenditure side of the ledger (which is not mentioned and for good reason!). It is also vital to be aware that in attempting a comparison of pre-independence models and post-independence models one is not comparing like with like. Things will alter significantly. For example, is it valid to claim tax income to government from pre to post will remain as is? Structurally it can’t be so. What portion of the expected tax income falls off the ledger after independence? This is not a simple piece of information to capture either- assumptions do not suffice. Then there are issues such as new defense arrangements and contributions towards that, assumption of debt servicing and new loan arrangements. There are the new costs for setting in place all the changes and dealing with the inevitable issues those will create. Then there is the high risk of what the new arrangements will be. They are not trivial matters to structure. Subtle definitions and classifications have significant consequences. Which civil servants, enforcers and compliance workers will be paid for by whom? How much is that? What tax arrangement and compliance overheads will be applied to trans-shipments of goods or commercial cross-border activity. What engagements will there be with the UK government? Surely it can’t be expected that the UK government would “play fair” during negotiations and just roll over and award a beneficent and gracious deal to a newly escaped Scotland? That certainly was not the Irish experience. One also has to consider matters such as the banks and what they will do, for it is they who will inform the newly independent Scottish government how things are going to be. There, a start and it is a lot of work to go through it and calculate the values pertaining to the most likely of the possible outcomes.
There is some cherry picking of data throughout the article. He does not present expenditures and discuss them.
Claiming further export activity is all very well (assuming that can actually be attained), but what is the state of the internal economy demonstrating? For example, it is all very well to claim that 100,000 new jobs are going to magically appear (even Obama says things like that- he, at least, understands that those comments are not supposed to be taken as if they are serious). The reality is the unemployment level now. What occurs with that? How does one know? Also how are things like student debt playing out? Are they the next wave of delinquency? What occurs to the great universities when the student loan bubble deflates? How much is that bail out?
In the link, point 7 has proven to be ridiculously optimistic.
Point 8 is puff. It smells like an expensive boondoggle!
Review point number 10. Michael states this. “This includes the opportunity to create a simpler tax system that supports Scottish business; reforming the labour market to improve employer/employee relations; encouraging migration to Scotland to balance Scotland’s unique demographic needs”.
It is key (supporting business, reforming the labour market, dealing with the demographic problem etc) and signals the start of the major social changes which would have to occur.
Point 11 also links to a site discussing a new administration of pensions and offers that could be an improvement (that anyone would trust politicals with retirement savings is outstanding!). The issue here is the foreshadowing of structural changes to one of the most important and popular of the welfare benefits. They won’t stop with that either.
Points 10 and 11 signal a recognition of some of the changes necessary. They would be fundamental for success and sustainable viability. Perhaps there will be another attempt….
Siotu
Hello Ali
A brief response as I have to get going to attend to some stuff that needs doing around here this morning. No offense meant by it.
You write, “Recall that what you argued is that Scotland cannot be a viable independent state because of economic dislocation.”
I pointed out that presently it would be non-viable, not that it cannot be viable.
Quoting, “As I understand it, you are saying that Icelanders have made a difficult adjustment the Greeks have so far shirked.”
Not quite, although the Greeks are in for a tough reckoning soon. They don’t directly compare though. The circumstances of the two countries are quite different from each other. Also the attributes of the respective economies and their people are different. The problems they faced and how they dealt with them were not the same either.
Quoting, “It is not a secret that a heavily indebted economy will at some point require to cut consumption.”
Yes and that is what an independent Scotland will likely become straight away- heavily in debt. Don’t expect the UK to let them walk away without debt servicing and other expensive obligations. Now there is something else to watch when it comes to debt. Assumption of debt leads towards loss of national sovereignty. Never forget it! Politicians routinely do, although in many cases they likely do not care anyway.
Quoting, “However, it does not follow that there is any need to bow to the dubious wisdom of the IMF…”
Indeed it does not follow……still, Greece is a delinquent debtor state and in the end the Greek government did do exactly as it was ordered to do.
I am interested in a thought experiment about Greece. I asked Evan what he thought about this. Imagine Greece abandoned the EU and the Euro. What would occur were Greece to do that and relinquish the debt? What consequences would there be? What do you think?
Siotu
Siotu
You know, I suspect we’re talking past each other to an extent.
You are still, however, over-egging it when you talk about Scotland. It is an advanced economy. It’s public finances are sustainable. Its electorate relatively sophisticated. There is no obvious sense in which a Scottish state would be *unviable”.
As for its share of the UK debt, it has never been the position of any party campaigning for independence that Scotland should renege on its share of the debt.
Excessive debt (which is not what Scotland has incurred) leads to economic collapse one way or another, not a loss of sovereignty (the state still has the ability to act, for example, to default and institute a currency reform).
Both Iceland and Greece have made adjustments similar in magnitude as a proportion of GDP. (Look at the Greek public deficit adjusted for interest payments.) I hope I wasn’t arguing that they are not very different economies. Again the relevant difference has been their monetary regime, floating exchange rate versus fixed.
As for bowing to the demands of the IMF, I have touched on that. It is nigh impossible to resist, but it can be done. It ought to be. There is not a state has benefited from the ministrations of the IMF.
I don’t think your thought experiment entirely to the point. We all know that Greece would face a long period of austerity and impoverishment, as it does within the euro. Whether the ructions would bring the army into play again, I suspect would depend on the degree of statesmanship or intelligence shown by the rest of the EU and the US. So far the health of their banking systems has taken priority over the citizens of an EU member state, but presumably strategic security interests kick in.
Complete bollocks from start to finish, laughably holed below the credibility line.
Just wrong, terribly wrong, throughout. Ignorant, ill-informed, malicious.
Crap.
Ahistorical mince. Not even worthy of detailed rebuttal, just laughable, but mendacious Anglo-centric establishment tripe.